Note: The following transcript was generated using AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Bismillahi wassalatu wassalamu ala rasoolillahi salallahu alayhi wasallam amma ba'da Salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Brothers and sisters, it gives me great pleasure to welcome you and to introduce you to a brand new show and a brand new podcast called The Hot Seat. To understand a little bit more about The Hot Seat, we first have to understand the context of the modern day world we find ourselves living in in the year 2019. It is a world in which perhaps there are more doubts, misconceptions and misinterpretations that are thrown around about the religion of Islam than in any other period of time in the history of mankind.
The internet is the number one source used by people globally to acquire information on any topic and it is riddled and full of false notions and erroneous ideologies about the Our kids, ourselves are being exposed to this kind of information on a daily and if not daily then at the very least weekly basis and whether we know it or not, whether we choose to accept it or not, it is having an effect on ourselves, our hearts, our minds and ultimately our understanding of this beautiful religion. To further complicate the problem, many of us find ourselves living in western societies where the governments and the social norms and pressures are constantly trying to redefine what is good and what is bad, what is accepted and what is rejected, what Islam is and is allowed to be and what Islam is never allowed to be. All of this, my brothers and sisters, ultimately leads to confusion, it leads to ignorance and if Allah permits, it can lead to misguidance.
The Hot Seat has therefore been designed with the permission of Allah alone to counter these kind of modern day contemporary issues head on by using the knowledge and the guidance of the Muslims of the past, the early generations of Muslims, the best of generations. There's not a single Muslim on the face of the planet today that would doubt the fact that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala completed our religion for us over 1400 years ago and that that completed, holistic, perfect religion is just as applicable now in the year 2019 as it was back then. We truly do have classical solutions for contemporary problems.
However, this isn't your normal, average Islamic lecture series. First of all, it's not a lecture, it's a discussion between two parties, often opposing parties, in an attempt to reach the truth bi'idhnillah. And secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it's a unique, one-of-its-kind, interactive podcast where you, from the comfort of your own home, have the opportunity to vote for and to choose the topic we'll be discussing on the show.
You also have the chance to ask your own questions on these contemporary issues and to grill the speaker if you feel like he hasn't been grilled enough on the show itself. I'll be releasing details of how you can do both of those things at the end of this episode. But for now, without any further ado, let's get into this episode of The Hot Seat.
Welcome to another episode of The Hot Seat. Today, we have a very, very important topic to discuss. It's a heavyweight topic.
It's a very contemporary, modern-day issue that we're going through at this moment in time, and it's talking about the Muslim rulers. Are the Muslim rulers actually Muslim, or are they actually disbelievers? Before we get onto that, I think, as always, it's a good idea to start with some opening definitions. So why don't you start by defining what is kufr? What is disbelief? The word al-kufr in the Arabic language is aslu al-kufri min al-kafri.
It comes from the word kafr, and it's the measure of kafara, the verbal noun of kafara, the root word of kafara. That's what it means. And it has many meanings, but all of the meanings go back to al-satr wal-taghtiyah.
It is to conceal something. Okay. And it's to hide something.
That's why the scholars, they say the ayah where Allah Ta'ala, He says, kamatha lighaythin a'jaba al-kuffara nabatuh, kamatha lighaythin a'jaba al-kuffara. Kuffar here are the ones that are being spoken about here as the kuffar is the farmers. The farmers, they are kuffar, kuffar in the sense where they take the seed, and they place it into the earth, and they bury it.
So they hide it. They conceal it. Also, the night is called kafir, al-laylu kafirun.
The night is kafir because it conceals the light of the sun with the darkness. So it's called a kafir. So that's what it means originally in the Arabic language.
In terms of what it means in the sharia, Sheikh al-Islam al-Taymiyyah and others, they defined it. And the best or the most comprehensive definition will mean it's dhiddu al-iman. It's the opposite of al-iman.
So kuffar is the opposite of al-iman. And so the person will then have to know what iman is, because sometimes things are defined with its opposite. So kuffar is the opposite of al-iman.
And we hear in the Qur'an, in the sunnah, we hear things like Is it easy for us to make takfir, so to put this ruling of kuffar on someone? Because it comes up quite often in the Qur'an and the sunnah. Does that give the impression that it's quite an easy thing for us to do? And labeling a person a kafir is not a light issue. It's a very serious, very heavy issue.
For that reason, Imam al-Bukhari and Muslim, they narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that he said If a person says to his brother, if he says to him, this kuffar will come back to one of the two. So if a person labels his brother kafir, it will come back to one of the two. Also, Muslim narrated in his sahih on the authority of Jundub that the Messenger ﷺ, he said about a man, a story of a man.
This man was a worshipper. He used to worship Allah a lot. And he would always advise a brother of his.
He would always say to him, Brother, stop what you're doing. Fear Allah, repent and come back from your wrongdoings. And this sinner would consistently carry on doing it.
And he would do it and he would do it. So this really annoyed the worshipper. So the worshipper said to him, after seeing this man's persistent and he's continuous in his wrongdoings, he said, Wallahi, Allah is not going to forgive so and so.
Referring to the sinner. Then Allah said in response to the one who said, Allah is not going to give this man. Allah said to him, Who is the one who is speaking on my behalf? Who is saying that I'm not going to forgive so and so? I have forgiven so and so, and I have now nullified your deeds.
What he said to him right now is, He said, Allah is not going to forgive so and so. In other words, you're a disbeliever. Because the only one Allah doesn't forgive is the disbelievers.
So in other words, he said to him, you're a disbeliever. So it's very dangerous when it comes to labelling a person a kafir. I just want to read one powerful quote of Al-Imam Al-Shawqani, in response to that question you asked.
Al-Imam Al-Shawqani, he said a statement that really deserves for a student of knowledge, for even a Muslim, to memorise or to learn, or even to keep it close to themselves in the course of their life. Because it's something that we find very common, people labelling people kuffar, kafir, disbeliever. This statement is really powerful.
He said to him, Al-Imam Al-Shawqani said, He said, He said, Rahim Allah, he said, no, labelling a man to be a disbeliever, by saying that he has left the fold of Islam, expelling him from Islam, and putting him under the fold of disbelief, it is not befitting for a Muslim to do this, who believes in Allah, and believes in the Day of Judgment. So now this is the principle now. That evidence is as clear as what? It's more clearer than the sun.
Okay. Can't have ambiguity, it can't be an issue of difference of opinion, it has to be something that is crystal clear. And then he brought the statement of the Prophet, where he said, the hadith that we just mentioned.
And then at the ending of his statement, he said, Rahim Allah, after bringing many narrations, and many evidence from the Prophet ﷺ, he said, Rahim Allah, and anything that has come in this regard, meaning the hadith that have warned against placing a person as a kafir, is, is one of the greatest, most serious hadiths, that give you a reminder regarding this issue, to go and place people as a kafir. Takfir is not my rights, your rights, or a scholar's rights. The takfir is the haq of Allah ﷻ. It's Allah ﷻ who places takfir on people.
It's the Messenger ﷺ who can say, this person is a kafir. وَلِذَٰلِكَ بِنُ الْقَيِّمِ He said, الْكُفْرُ حَقُّ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ رَسُولِهِ بِالنَّصِ يَثْبُتُ لَا بِقَوْلِ فُلَانِ مَنْ كَانَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ وَعَبْدُهُ قَدْ كَفَّرَهُ فَذَاكَذُ الْكُفْرَانِ Kufr is the right of Allah and His Messenger ﷺ. It can only be established, kufr, by textual evidence. Not by my sheikh said, my imam said, لا بِقَوْلِ فُلَانِ Not the statement of a scholar.
Not the statement of an imam. However much they are in number, however large and great they are, it doesn't matter. They don't, that's not their rights.
مَنْ كَانَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ وَعَبْدُهُ Anyone Allah and His Messenger ﷺ placed him as a kafir, قَدْ كَفَرَهُ فَذَاكَذُ الْكُفْرَانِ This is kufr. Kufr is like halal and haram. You and I can't say, this is halal, or this is haram without what? Without evidence.
قُلْ إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ رَبِّيَ الْفَوَحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَمَا بَطَنَ وَالْإِثْمَ وَالْبَغْيَ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَأَن تُشْرِكُ بِاللَّهِ مَا لَمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَانًا وَأَن تَقُولُ عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعَلَمُونَ So, Sorry, what does that mean? That speaking about Allah Ta'ala with no knowledge, that's what I want from the ayah. We can't come and say this is halal, this is haram, lie about Allah's religion. We have to have evidence from the Qur'an and the surah.
Okay, understood. I think before we talk about the Muslim rulers, which will be the main crux of our discussion today, I think to have a fruitful discussion, it's important that we agree on some certain principles before we move on. So, the first question I have for you is, is kufr just an issue of the heart? Like, do I have to disbelieve in Allah, disbelieve in the Day of Judgment or can actions, certain actions that I do also take me or anybody else outside of the fold of Islam? Scholars have looked at takfir from many different perspectives.
Just like if I was to look at you, I can look at you from many different perspectives. I can look at you in terms of your complexion, I can look at you in terms of your height, I can look at you in terms of your ethnicity, I can look at you in terms of your gender. There's many different perspectives I can look at you at.
Scholars, they've done the same with kufr. They've looked at it from many different perspectives and they realize that kufr, from one of the ways of looking at it is, أَقْصَامُ الْكُفْرِ بِعْتِبَارِ بَوَعِثِ وَأَسْبَابِهِ Looking at takfir in terms of where it occurs from, I mean where it happens from. Okay.
Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah believe kufr can happen from قَوْل, speech, and عَمَل, action, and اَعْتِقَاد, a belief. Actions as well? So actions by itself can be kufr. So wait, let's pause here a second.
So I believe in Allah, I believe in his messenger, I believe in the Day of Judgment, I have all of the beliefs of a Muslim, but because I do a certain act, you're saying that could render me as a non-Muslim? Some actions, yes. I don't understand the correlation between an action and a belief. For example, doesn't Allah say throughout the Quran, أَلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ He talks about belief, those who believe and those who do righteous actions.
So Allah clearly separates belief from actions and you're trying to bring them together, why? So belief can be kufr by itself. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I understand that.
And speech can be a kufr, and actions, your mere action can be a kufr. For example, صَبُّ النَّبِي ﷺ Insulting the messenger ﷺ, it renders any and everything in your heart. Your heart totally goes.
If you insult the messenger ﷺ, you're a disbeliever. That action alone is enough to tell us you're a disbeliever, whether you were joking or whether it doesn't matter. صَبُّ النَّبِي ﷺ Insulting the messenger ﷺ is kufr.
Mocking the religion is kufr. You know the famous ayah, لا تَعْتَذِرُوا قَدْ كَفَرْتُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ Don't look for excuses. After they mocked the prophet ﷺ and they mocked the religion, they came to the prophet trying to look for excuse.
And they tried to look for a way out. And Allah said to them, لا تَعْتَذِرُوا Don't try to look for excuses. قَدْ كَفَرْتُمْ You have now become disbelievers.
You're labeled as disbelievers. So the action itself is disbelief. So Ahlus Sunnah when it comes to kufr, where it occurs from, they believe it occurs from the limbs.
It occurs from speech. And it also occurs from a person's belief. Okay, what about the hadith that I have in front of me where the messenger ﷺ has said, No one will enter paradise in whose heart is an atom's weight of arrogance.
And no one will enter hell whose heart has an atom's weight of faith. So this is talking about if my belief, if my heart, my heart is good. It just has an atom's weight of faith.
I won't enter the hellfire. I won't be a disbeliever in other words. But you're saying that your heart could be good.
But your actions render you a disbeliever. Aren't you contradicting this hadith? You see what we have to do when it comes to the textual evidence, the Qur'an and the Sunnah, is that we have to bring them all together. We can't cherry pick and say, we want to take this one and we want to abandon this one and we want to take this one.
The deviated groups, every one of them, they took what was in favor of them. What they thought was in line with their belief. The khawarij came and they took the ayah, bala man kasaba sayyi'atah wa ataq gua qati'atuh, faulayik ashabun naarihum feehaa qaliduhn Anyone who does a sin.
Anyone who doesn't sin. What does the ayah say? bala man kasaba sayyi'atah wa ataq gua qati'atuh faulayk ashabun naarihum feeháa qaliduhn So they said this ayah shows that if you do anything that you're in the hellfire forever. Not knowing that the sin that's being referred to here is shirk.
Okay, okay. The same thing when it comes to these evidence. Generally speaking, those who use those evidences who use those evidences to say that there is no kufr that can happen from their limbs are the murji'ah, the deviated group that went against the belief of Ahlus Sunnah.
So we have to bring all of those textual evidences together. I just gave you an evidence right now, I clearly gave you an evidence which is لا تعتذروا قد كفرتم بعد إيمانكم Don't look for excuses after they insulted the Prophet, after they mocked the religion. Allah said don't look for excuses, you are disbelievers.
So we have to bring all of those textual evidences together. Okay, you touched on it just now and I want to explore it a little bit. I just feel like I've given you a general answer, let me give you a more detailed answer.
That hadith that you brought and other hadiths, what we have to understand is that سب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم insulted the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and insulted the religion, it renders what's in your heart. There's nothing, there's no must, there's nothing left anymore. All of that is gone.
So that is actually in line with the hadith because there is no... There is a relation between the external and the internal. But the person, this action alone has shown us and has indicated to us that there's nothing in your heart. So there can't be nothing left because of the relationship between the external and the internal.
I'm not saying that the kufr can never happen from the limbs, but it really happened from the heart. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it happened from the limbs.
Okay, it happened from your limbs and you're kafir because of what you did by insulting Allah عز و جل and His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم. Okay, fine. You just mentioned the belief of the khawarij and I want to explore that in a little bit more detail.
You said that they consider someone who commits major sins to leave the fold of Islam. Why is this not correct? Doesn't Allah say in the Qur'an أَفَرَأَيْتَ مِنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَٰهَهُ هَوَىٰ Have you not seen the one who takes his desires to be his God? When somebody commits a sin, they usually do it out of desire. So he's committed shirk with Allah because he's taking it as a lord besides him.
The ayah أَفَرَأَيْتَ مِنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَٰهَهُ هَوَٰهُ doesn't necessarily show he's a kafir. But what it means here is that the innovator, for example, would then fall under that hadith. Why? How? Because he's taken his own whims and desires as to legislate the permissibility of an action that wasn't legislated by Allah and His Messenger.
The same thing, the minor sin will fall under that. Why are you just restricting it to the major sin in the ayah? Yeah, according to this ayah, correct. Why are you saying this isn't true? So you have to understand, you're going to have to say any person who goes against Allah and His Messenger even once has done shirk.
According to this ayah? The ayah doesn't show that. The ayah shows those people who have chosen to worship other than Allah, then this is kufr akbar. Okay? And then those who have chosen to follow their desires, that they are sinners.
This is not a مسألة أهل السنة ever differ upon. It's a مسألة إجمع مقرر. It's a unanimously agreed upon.
Someone can become a kafir by taking other than Allah and he becomes a kafir because he worshipped other than Allah. That's one thing that needs to be understood. But the other flip side which is if a person does a sin and he goes against Allah's command, without a shadow of a doubt he has gone against Allah's way and that which Allah has sanctioned and he has followed his desires over Allah's commandment, but it doesn't make him a disbeliever.
But he's disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. Oh, without a shadow of a doubt. So what about the ayah قُلْ أَعْطِيُ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ The one who, sorry, just to give the English translation, say obey Allah and the Messenger.
If they turn away, i.e. they do not obey Allah and His Messenger, then indeed Allah does not like the disbelievers. This is a person who does إعراض كُلِّ. It's one of the forms of kufr, which is that a person fully turns away from Allah and His Messenger externally and internally and doesn't give any consideration to it.
But the إعراض الجُزئي, which is partial abandonment of Allah's religion, that makes a person a kafir. Okay. What if the person considers what he's doing is permissible? For example, drinking alcohol is a major sin.
On its own, it doesn't take someone outside the fold of Islam. Do we agree on that? What if the person actually believes drinking alcohol is permissible? I'm allowed to drink alcohol. Does he then become a kafir? Yeah.
So you said that drinking alcohol is a major sin. We've agreed that it's a major sin. Then the person says that it's halal for me.
There's no problem. And beautiful that you mentioned that. To say that it's… Sorry.
For the person to drink alcohol is not making it halal for themselves. What's making it halal for themselves is that they believe it's halal for them. If they say that, yeah.
So it's good that you mentioned the word belief. إعتقاد حل الشيء It's that the person believes this is halal for them. Yeah, that becomes كفر أكبر.
That becomes كفر. So what if someone has been doing that their entire life? Isn't this then an indication that they actually believe it's permissible for them? Continuation of this action and consistency, it doesn't make it استحلال necessarily. We can't make a person كافر because of مجرد الفعل.
Because of a mere fact of doing something for too long or continuation of it. Okay, fine. The final principle I want us to agree upon before we move on to the issue of the rulers is the issue of shirk.
Shirk obviously is a specific action that has a specific ruling. Do you agree with me that if somebody commits shirk, they leave the fold of Islam? Without any excuse, that's it. They've just gone outside the fold of Islam.
Yeah, shirk أكبر in general takes a person out of the fold of Islam. لا شك ولا ريض. Without a doubt.
Okay, good. Let's now talk about the issue of the rulers, the Muslim rulers. Before we move on, do you agree that in most of the Muslim countries, if not all of them, the rulers are not ruling by the sharia, in its totality, the law of Allah? I can't talk about that because I haven't observed all countries.
So the majority of the countries, let's talk about the majority of the countries, you've seen that in many of these Muslim countries, alcohol is permissible. Riba, interest-based banks is permissible. Rather, the one who takes out an interest-based loan, he is punished if he doesn't pay the interest in the courts that they've set up.
This is obviously ruling by other than the Quran and Sunnah. You would agree with me on that? That is true. Okay.
Then what about the ayah in Surah Al-Ma'idah where Allah says, وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ Whoever does not rule by what Allah has sent down, then they are the disbelievers. Surely this then applies to the Muslim rulers that we just agreed are not ruling by what Allah sent down? Okay, let's agree on some points. Number one, you kept mentioning the concept of the rulers and the rulers and the rulers.
As though you restrict the issue of ruling by other than what Allah sent down only on the rulers. It's like you're restricting it only to them. Okay, go on, carry on.
What I mean by that is, وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ It's not restricted only to the Muslim rulers. So who else does it apply to? You and I. In what sense? Okay, good. So the ayah says, وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ The word man here is general.
And then ma' again, which is in there as well, is a general term. So man, it means whoever. The ayah says whoever.
Isn't that what the translation says? Yes, whoever. Whoever. So it's anyone.
So great scholars like Ibn Hazm and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, they mentioned that ruling by other than what Allah sent down also refers to your own actions. So what you're referring to is like Ibn Hazm in his book Al-Fisul, when he says من فعل فقد حكم Whoever does an action, then he is ruled. This is what you're talking about now.
Okay, but you'd agree with me that certain terms in the Arabic language have a definition that is Zahir, that is apparent. And the apparent definition of ruling is to set legislation, set laws. Then there might be a Mu'awwil definition, which is like an interpreted meaning, which might be to commit a sin or something like this.
Why are you trying to go towards the Mu'awwil meaning and leaving the Zahir, leaving the apparent? The Zahir is actually to say that it's everything. Because of the ayah وَإِذَا بُشِرَ أَحَدُونَ بِالْأُنْثَ أَضَلَّ وَجْهُهُمُ مُسْوَدًا وَهُوَ كَظِيمٌ يَتَوَارَى مِنَ الْقَوْمِ مِن سُوءٍ مَا بُشِرَ بِهِ أَيُمْسِكُوا عَلَى هُونٍ أَمْ يَدُسُّهُ فِي الْتُرَابِ أَلَا سَأَمَا يَحْكُمُونَ What does that mean, Zahir? Allah is referring to the pre-Islamic era where they buried the girls alive. They buried the girls alive.
When they buried the girls alive, Allah Azza wa Jalla referred to their action of burying these young girls alive. Allah said refer to it as أَلَا سَأَمَا يَحْكُمُونَ What an evil ruling they were doing. حُكُم So the word حُكُم is their own wrongdoings was referred to it as well.
You see my point? So you can't now restrict it to that meaning. And plus when we see a term in the Qur'an, we have to use other verses from the Qur'an to prove it. So the word حُكُم is not restricted to just judging between two people.
It's also referring to your own actions. Okay. That's number one.
Number two. Let's use the example Sheikh Al-Islam Taymiyyah used. Ibn Taymiyyah used the example of مَنْ حَكَمَ بَيْنَ اثْنَيْنِ Anyone who judges between two children, they come to him and they say uncle, uncle, whose handwriting is better? And he goes unjustly because he's related to one of them.
So the one he's related to, he says your handwriting is better over the other one. فَقَدْ حَكَمَ بِغَيْرِ مَا انزَلَ اللَّهِ He's judged by other than what Allah sent down. So the issue of حُكُم بغير ما انزلَ الله restricting it to the leader is the first mistake many people fall into.
Okay, but do you understand? Using your common sense at the very least, do you understand that there is a difference between someone judging between the handwriting of two children and someone legislating in an entire country that riba is halal, riba is not a sin, it's fine, you can drink alcohol. You've got to understand there's a difference between the two. Yes, the sins are not the same.
The sins can always be different, but it's still a sin. You can't take it to kufr. You're right in the sense of saying this sin is bigger than this sin.
It's true. Because the number of people who are coming under it is more in number. The people he's oppressing is more in number.
There's no denying the fact that this sin is bigger than this sin. What you're talking about is ta'thim and ta'thim. Sin and sin.
Because it's large in number, now it automatically becomes kufr. It's a fallacy. So you're saying according to this ayah, both of them are still sins.
Another point I want to bring out, the ayah that you just quoted. Are you saying that you're taking the ayah for its apparent, that you want to say kufr is major? Yes. This is the belief of the qawarij.
The reason why I say this is the belief of the qawarij is because I just proved to you that your own action is what? Hukum. Anyone who does major sin to you has to be a kafir. Because you took the ayah and it's apparent.
So what is it then? Allah says, So we say that what Ibn Abbas said, Ibn Abbas said he said, Meaning? It's a kufr before the major kufr. Is that actually authentically attributed to Ibn Abbas or is it a statement of ta'wuz? Ibn Abbas is authentically transmitted to him. The sanad for that hadith is Ibn Jalil At-Tabari narrates it in his tafsir.
He brings Hannadi Ibn Sarri, who he heard it from, and also Ibn Waqi' who both of them heard from, Al-Waqi' and then Sufyan, Ma'mar Ibn Rashid, Abdullah Ibn Ta'wuz, Ibn Ta'wuz Ibn Kaysan, and Abdullah Ibn Abbas. Sanad here is, No one weakened the sanad. Over 40 scholars authenticated it.
Ibn Uthaymeen said the ones whose hearts are sick are the ones who go and try to weaken it. Ibn Uthaymeen clearly said that. This hadaya, the only person who has taken it for it's apparent and said it's kufr, Akbar are the khawarij, they're the only ones who said it.
They're the only ones who said it. I just want to bring you a consensus. Okay.
A consensus. Ijma' That ruling by other than what Allah sent down is a major sin. Consensus, there's no difference between them.
I've got a consensus that says it's kufr. I'm going to come to it right now. Okay, no problem.
You give me yours first and I'll give you mine. Okay, I'll give you mine inshallah. The first consensus is Ibn Abdel Barra.
He says, Ibn Abdel Barra, he says in his Kitab al-Tamheed, the 16th volume, page 358. He says, The scholars are unanimously in agreement. What? To be oppressive in your leading, other than what Allah sent down.
Yeah. In your ruling, he said, It is from the major sins. Of course, the one who deliberately does it.
The one who deliberately does it. And he's aware of what he's doing. Ignorance, of course, is an excuse.
So we have this consensus. Ibn Abdel Barra says this is a major sin. Okay, so the Ijma' that I'm going to bring you is, first of all, a statement from Ibn Taymiyyah.
And this is found in Majmu' al-Fatawa, volume number 28, page number 524. Where he says, So if you look at the statement Shaykh Al-Islam Taymiyyah says in Majmu' al-Fatawa, He used the word, What does that mean? It means to permit, to make halal. You used the English translation as the word permit.
Yes. This issue of istihlal is kufr to me. Sorry, what do you mean by istihlal? Let's look at what Shaykh Al-Islam Taymiyyah himself said about istihlal.
Okay. What does that mean in English? Istihlal is to make something halal. Just like the rulers are making riba halal.
Okay, let me say something. I feel like this is very important that we say this. Okay, fine.
Okay. Six of them are kufr akbar, by consensus. There is no difference of opinion.
And three of them are there. There is a difference of opinion. The sixth kufr akbar is if the ruler has juhud.
Juhud means he believes in his heart that this is the rule of Allah. But he rejects it from the outer. He is a kafir.
Okay. Number two. He rejects it from the heart and externally rejects it as well.
He is a kafir. Okay. Number three.
He makes it halal. Which is to say this is halal. Which is to say this is halal.
He has to say it. His doing is not enough. What is the evidence for the condition of having to say it? The Ibn Taymiyyah that you just used right now.
He says, A statement like that. Meaning in English? He believes it in his heart and then he affirms it with his tongue. Okay.
I'm going to come to a very good point inshaAllah. So istihlal is to believe it in your heart. And to verbalize it.
Okay. The person vocalizes it. And says this is halal.
What's the problem? There's nothing wrong with it. How much have I mentioned? Four right? Three maybe. Yeah.
And the fourth one now is He goes it's better than the law of Allah. He gives precedence to this one. Okay.
Number five. He makes it equal to the rule of Allah. Okay.
Number six is He attributes this ruling to the religion of Allah Azza wa Jalla. These six are There's no difference of opinion. Okay.
The one that you just mentioned to me, it falls under istihlal. Right. Not to mention the context of that statement of Sheikh of Islam Ibn Taymiyyah is actually in the context of the Tatar he was talking about.
But why can't that apply to the modern day world? The Tatar were different in the way they ruled. They believed Yasir was the god. The man that they were worshipping And their leader, they saw him as an ilah.
That he's a They worshipped him. So that's very important. That you take this fatwa of the Sheikh Rahimahullah Ta'ala And you what? You understand it correctly.
I haven't still been proven otherwise In my fatwa of Ibn Abdulbar Rahimahullah Ta'ala Which is that the consensus is Ruling by other than what Allah has sent down is a major sin. If you say it's not a major sin Then you are saying anyone Who does a sin, major sin He's a kafir. No, not necessarily.
Let me bring another statement. This time of Ibn Kathir In Al Bidayah Wal Nihayah And he says And again I know you're going to say This is in the context of the Tatar Because it is But I'm still I still don't understand Why we can't take the generality of the statement And he doesn't mention anything about permitting Because really when you look at the word permits I know in the English language anyway It could mean permits as in believe in your heart That it's permissible Or it could mean making a law That is making it permissible. Do you get what I'm saying? We're talking about Shari'a issues We're not talking about worldly issues.
Okay fine, let me bring the statement of Ibn Kathir. So whoever leaves the clear Shari'ah Which was revealed to Muhammad Ibn Abdillah The Seal of the Prophets And takes the hukum, takes the ruling To other than it from the laws of the kafir Which are abrogated He has disbelieved. He doesn't mention anything about Believing it's permissible Rejecting it He doesn't mention any of these conditions That you mentioned.
So what about the one who takes the hukum To the yasiq The law of the Tatar Like you mentioned And puts it before it. Underline that word for me. Okay, puts it before it.
Whoever does that He is disbelieved by the ijma' of the Muslims So why do you want to underline Puts it before it? I believe it's Kufr Akbar Again it's tafdheel It's given virtue over it. Okay Again it comes under the six that I mentioned He says this is This takes precedence over the law of Allah He's a kafir for that. You see these fatawa of these ulama They need to be understood.
They can't be cherry picked. My statement of Ibn Abdilbar Shows that In and within itself Is a kabiratun minal kabair He said The scholars are unanimously in agreement To be oppressive in your ruling To rule by other than what Allah has sent down basically He said that Is from the major sin The one who does it deliberately And has the knowledge of what he's doing Okay So if we don't agree on that point Then our discussion will generally not go the right way Ruling by other than what Allah has sent down Has to be seen as to be a major sin Anyone who says Keep this in mind Anyone who says Ruling by other than what Allah has sent down Jumlatan wa tafsila Unrestrictedly Is Kufr Akbar Then this is the madhabul khawalij Ma qala bi a'alim One a'alim From Ahlus Sunnah Anyone I challenge anyone To bring me one scholar Who said ruling by other than what Allah has sent down Jumlatan wa tafsila Unrestrictedly Like that Is Kufr Akbar I dare anyone to bring me one scholar who said it Okay let me take up that issue over there Shaykh Ibn Baz in his treatise Refuting Arab nationalism On page 39 He said Those who set laws that contradict the Quran He said about that And that is great corruption Clear Kufr and clear apostasy Shaykh Ibn Baz Ibn Baz's fatwa is one of the most Ma'roof fatwa Ruling by other than what Allah has sent down Ma'roof meaning Meaning well known, established Okay Shaykh Ibn Baz Has had a discussion With another great scholar Ibn Jibreel May Allah have mercy on him It's documented It's even recorded And I have the transcription of it Okay Where they discussed the issue of Ruling by other than what Allah has sent down Shaykh Ibn Baz Believed all of the nine forms that I mentioned And I Well I haven't mentioned the other three Which is Tashri'a Al-Taqneem And Al-Istibdal These three Remember six I said that was Kufr Yeah yeah Three there's a difference of opinion Okay Okay there were There's no unanimous agreement The first one is Al-Taqneem Al-Taqneem actually means That This individual Who He initiated He made the ruling He created this ruling And then he rules by it He formalized it He set the rules Okay That's Taqneem And then we have Al-Tashri'a Which is He changes the rule of Allah And the constitution He makes it into a man-made law And then he forces the people to follow it Okay That's called Tashri'a And Al-Istibdal Which is to just change the rule of Allah Ta'ala Without any other ruling Okay so these three There's no point of us discussing it Because there's a difference of opinion These three Ibn Baz said they're not Kufr Akbar They're not Kufr Akbar Okay His fatwa is Maroof And no one argues with Shaykh Ibn Baz Sorry no one argues that That's not Ibn Baz's fatwa Everyone knows that That's his view It's well known It's Maroof It's in his majmoo'ul fatawa Rahimahullah rahmatan wasa'a Again I do want to say something to you though Yeah The scholars are not the ones who do Takfeer I remember I said to the beginning Al-Kufr haqqullahi thumma rasulihi Bin nas yathbutu la bi qawli fulani Man kaana rabbul alameena wa abduhu qad kafarahu fadakadhu al-kufrani Only Allah and His Messenger can make Takfeer Okay Individuals can't Ruling by other than what Allah sent down Subhanahu wa ta'ala It's a major sin It's by consensus There's no difference of opinion All those fatwas They're misunderstood They're cut They're played around with Sarahatan I'll be very honest with you The fatwa of Ibn Abdul Bar Was not the only one who transmitted it Abu'l Abbas al-Qurtubi mentions the same as well in his Kitab al-Mufin Ibn Ashkari fi Sahih al-Muslim That the ruling by other than what Allah sent down Is a major sin Okay Unless it comes with one of those six that you mentioned Those six there's a consensus That is Kufr So there's an exception Okay These three need evidence Okay let's talk about those six then Let's focus our conversation on those six Because we both agree That if the ruler falls into one of these six Then he leaves the fold of Islam Good The first one you mentioned Al-Juhud Al-Juhud What was the definition of this one again? Al-Juhud means An yudhira ma la yubtinu fi qalbihi Is that he shows apparent That which he doesn't believe in his heart Like Iblis Sorry like Firaun Wa jahadu biha wastayqanataha anfusun dhulman wa uluwa Firaun was claiming that he was a supreme lord But Allah told us he was lying He didn't believe that in his heart Okay great So the person in his heart Believes that the laws of Allah Are correct and they're superior etc But apparently When he's ruling over his nation He's setting laws that are other than Allah This is exactly what the rulers are doing No I said to you That's my point Al-Juhud means I don't believe in the rule of Allah Yumkiruha He rejects it In his heart? No not in his heart Not in his heart Jahad is not doing it from his heart He's doing it out to the people Okay But the difference between Al-Takrib and Al-Juhud Is you can't tell the heart right Because you can only see what's apparent So Al-Takrib and Al-Juhud Are the same from the angle Of how he looks from the outside So you're saying that the person Has to Regardless of what he believes in his heart He has to openly say I reject the rules of Allah That's what you're saying? Number one Okay fine Or he sees it to be halal Because remember to me Ruling by other than what Allah sent down Is a what? Major sin Exactly So what you have to understand is If the action is kufr In and within itself This action is kufr Insulting Allah and his messenger We don't ask you Did you see it halal or not Because we don't need that The action is kufr itself That's it You've left the religion Okay Does that make sense? Yeah it makes sense We agreed with one of those principles at the start So if an action is kufr In and within itself It doesn't require Istihlal and juhud And takdheem And no We don't ask you for that Okay We don't No The action itself is kufr It's not paying us Like in ruling by Other than what Allah sent down It's like drinking khamar It's like committing zina As in the sense They're all major sins Zina doesn't become halal For the person doing All of their life She's got a boyfriend For 30 years Or 40 years It doesn't make her a kafir Because of that It's a major sin That is what many people Tend to not understand And the sad thing is And I have to mention The argument for some of the people Who say that They say I agree with you Abdurrahman If they were here Some of them would have said I agree with you Would you agree with me They would say Ruling by other than what Allah sent down Is what? It's a major sin I agree with you But I don't believe And I don't agree That And That That they fall under They are independent They are kufr by themselves That's some of the groups That's what they argue Okay You see my point? Yeah yeah I see I say to them This It's a It's playing with people's brains And minds How is that? The sharia never distinguishes Between Things that are the same It doesn't give them Two different rulings All three of them is ruling By other than what Allah sent down The only real difference is The quantity has changed now Yeah I see And no one does takfir Based on quantity Or amount Okay Okay fine Is refusing to pay the zakat An act of kufr? Or is it a major sin? Ahl al-sunnah have differed on that issue There is a difference of opinion Imam Muhammad One of his riwayat And views he held Was that Anyone who Refused to pay zakat Or doesn't pay zakat That he's a kafir Okay But there's also opinion That it's just a major sin Which is the strongest now Which is the strongest That's the opinion you believe So then why did Why did Abu Bakr Fight the people Who did refuse to pay zakat And call them apostates And take them outside Of the religion of Islam If it's not an act of kufr And if they themselves Never said that This is permissible I don't have to pay the zakat It was just an action of them No They did takdheeb of it This is the call of Shaykh al-Islam ibn Taymiyyah No they did takdheeb of it They disbelieved in it The ones who refused to pay the zakat They said we're not gonna pay To you Abu Bakr That's mentioned in the books? Of course They didn't just Not pay the zakat Something else Followed up with it They did juhud of the ruling They rejected this ruling So they openly said We don't believe That we have to pay We only used to give this To the prophet We're not gonna give it To anyone after the prophet They reject his ruling They came with The rejection of the ruling And then he said His famous statement Which is Wallahi if they refuse to give me an iqal Which is the rope They use for the camel I would fight with them Until they give it back to me Okay Plus Which is that You mentioned the ayah Every time the word kufr Comes in the Quran And the sunnah Does it always mean major? Does it always mean major kufr? Yeah No You're gonna say No it doesn't I mean of course I'm not just saying It's not sunnah We have the prophet Saying Insulting the muslim Is transgression And killing him Is disbelief Okay The prophet said In another hadith Don't become disbelievers After me Killing one another And we know Killing is not kufr Because Allah said Two groups of the believers Fight one another Yeah But the prophet referred to them As kafir I'm a kufr So kufr is not always major It can be minor as well Yeah but I would I believe that's Supposedly a weak argument Because kufr When it comes as the word kufr We can have a discussion Whether it's major or minor But when Allah says They are disbelievers He's not saying They have fallen into kufr He's saying they're disbelievers Ibn Abbas He's more knowledgeable Than you in the ayah Correct? Yeah I agree I just showed that Ibn Abbas It wasn't only Ibn Abbas Who said it Okay His student Tawus Said it His other student Said it These are the Great students Of Ibn Abbas Who said this We have Tawus Who said this We have Ibn Abbas Which was authentically Transmitted from We have Ata'a Ibn Abi Rabah Those are the three Sorry As you know In Majmu' al-fatawa Shaykh al-Islam He said When it came to the Tafsir of the Qur'an The most knowledgeable People of the Tafsir of the Qur'an Are the students of Ibn Abbas There's no one like them They're the most knowledgeable Like Ikrim al-Sa'id Ibn Jubayril Abu al-Sha'tha Mujahid Ata'a Ibn Abi Rabah Tawus These are the students Abu Alia These are the students Of Ibn Abbas They're the most Knowledgeable in Tafsir We have Two of the students Of Ibn Abbas Saying this Authentically We have Ibn Abbas himself Saying this Okay Let me ask you A very sincere question Be honest with yourself Be completely honest With yourself here Do you genuinely believe That these So called Muslim rulers Actually want What is best for their country What is best for their people I can't speak on that Because I would have to know What's in their hearts And their chest I would have to honestly And I don't want to come To the Day of Judgement With any Muslim And speak for what's In his heart And what he intended By it And just because Of their actions I can't necessitate That from their heart Because this is a belief That the scholars spoke about Which is لازم المذهب ليس بلازم حتى يلتزم به صاحبه Just because someone's Statement looks In a particular way Or seems a particular way You can't necessitate From there That this is Some rulers Ibn Uthaymeen As he said They have pressure on them They have pressure Being put on them And this is why They're doing it Others may have A bad intent To destroy Islam All of them It's a possibility But I can't speak And say Whichever of those It is Just like I can't say it For any other Muslim I can't speak about His intention I don't know What's in their hearts Okay I want to now Move the discussion On to Another part Which is One of the principles We agreed at the start Is that If somebody commits shirk They leave the fold of Islam Without any excuse Of الاستخلال الجهود These kind of excuses That you mentioned We don't need to establish These kind of excuses My argument now Is that ruling by Other than Allah Is shirk Allah says in the Quran إِنَّ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ That the ruling Is only for Allah So Surely This shows that If somebody rules By other than What Allah has sent down It's a form of shirk What about If somebody creates Like Allah Is it not Only Allah's action What do you mean By create something From scratch The ruling of The actions of Allah Right Yes No doubt What about creating Creating from scratch Is only for Allah No but Creating in general Is an action of Allah Right Yeah Creating in general Is an action of Allah Yeah And ruling is also The action of Allah Right Ruling is a right That is given to Allah Alone Yes Subhanallah Without a doubt All rulings are for him Subhanallah Where would you take The hadith of the Prophet Where he said The most severe punishment On the Day of Judgment Are those who create Like the creation of Allah Meaning The ones who have The severest punishment On the Day of Judgment Are those who do pictures Who create Like the creation of Allah So it sounds like shirk So you're going to say The ones who draw pictures Are kuffar No Ok Ok To wrap up this Particular episode Why don't we Summarize some Of the important concepts For example Where did this issue In this methodology Of making Takfir Of taking the Muslim rulers Outside of the fold of Islam Where did this originate from It came from a group Known as the Khawarij And that is why Sheikh Al-Islam Al-Taymiah May Allah have mercy on him He said And that is why He was the first one Who separated the Muslim community From the people of Bida'a The Khawarij The first group That left the Ahlul Sunnah Who left the way Of the Messenger May Allah have mercy on him The first group Were the Khawarij First number First group And Sheikh Al-Islam Al-Taymiah said In another place He said The Khawarij They are The first ones Who placed disbelief On the Muslims Based on sins And they also Placed Takfir On anyone Who opposed them In their innovation And they permit His blood And his wealth As the Khawarij And that is why Khalal mentioned That Imam Ahmad May Allah have mercy on him Khalal said Tell me The war Of Ibn Ismail The war Of Ibn Ismail Al-Karmani Imam Ahmad Said The Khawarij Are very evil people I don't know On this earth A people More evil than them Imam Ahmad Said this There has come Regarding them Many narrations From the Prophet It has reached Multitude narration They've made Takfir of the Muslims Based on major sins Ahlul Sunnah And I believe When it comes to major sins That it decreases Your Iman That it doesn't take you Out of the fold of Islam The poet he said If he forgives him And if he punishes him Kufr is greater What are some of the dangers Of this methodology In the modern world Concept Where the person Later Places Permissibility of the blood Of everybody Who goes against them And then their wealth He will take it And it's exactly What we see ISIS And their likes doing To the Muslims today Which is They took Al-Hukm Bighayri ma'anzal Allah They took it as what Kufr Kufr Akbar And so then They started to label Every and any leader To be a kafir And they just took The path of their forefathers The Khawarij Okay What is your final piece Of advice Just to wrap up this episode To those who may be inclined To this kind of methodology Well my advice to them Is These are very big issues Very dangerous issues When it comes to Labeling people Kufr And kafir And disbeliever Learn the religion Ignorance Is The greatest enemy That Iblis uses Against the people Educate yourself Learn it Books have been written About it I honestly encourage you One book If you could buy Anyone who reads The Arabic language If you can buy That one book It's written about Takfir And it's written by Sheikh Issam Al-Sinani And it has the Takdeem And the praise Of Sheikh Salah Al-Fawzan On it Anybody who can buy That book Of Sheikh Issam Al-Sinani With the praise Of Sheikh Salah Al-Fawzan They will benefit From it a lot It has all of this Which we mentioned And much more Detailed discussion In there One of the best books That are written In this regard What's the name of the book? I think it's called Al-Tahrir Fi Al-Takfir Or something like that It's been a very Very interesting episode Until next time I hope you enjoyed And benefited From that discussion Please do share it With your friends And family members If you feel like They might benefit too And don't forget To hit that subscribe Button below So you're notified Of any new episodes Check out www.thehotseatpodcast.com That's thehotseatpodcast.com On there You'll find a little bit More information About the podcast And you'll also have The chance to vote For which topic You'd like to see Discussed on the show You can also ask Questions on the website To the speaker himself About these contemporary Modern day issues Until next time Fi iman ilahi Wassalamu alaikum Wa rahmatullahi Wa barakatuh
