Note: The following transcript was generated using AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alameen, wassalatu wassalamu ala rasoolillahi sallallahu alayhi wasallam. Amma ba'd.
Ustad Abdur Rahman Hassan, assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. Wa alaykum assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. Welcome back to the Hosea podcast.
Jazakallah khairan for having me. Jazakallah khairan. So last time we were on here, we spoke about the background, the history, and some of the core beliefs of the group known as the Asha'ara.
And you actually quoted a lot of statements from their own books and their own scholars, and really kind of, for lack of a better word, exposed some of their hidden beliefs. We're now going to be talking, as a continuation of that topic, we're going to be talking about what is probably the main point of contention between the two groups, the Salafis or the Asha'aris. And that is, how do we interpret and understand the names and the attributes of Allah? And as usual, I'm going to give you an introduction, just like last time, I am going to limit the introduction to a 10-minute limit.
And after that, we can get into a discussion, inshallah, inshallah. Go ahead and start. Alhamdulillahi rabbil alameen.
Lahu alhamdul hasan wa thana'u aljameel. Wa shadu an la ilaha illallah wahdahu la sharika lah. If you go into ilmul kalam and you say something, it's not just a mere claim, a mere mistake, sorry.
If you go into ilmul kalam and you say something, it's not just a mere claim, a mere mistake, sorry. It's not just a mistake here, it's heresy. Zandaqa.
Wa ma shay'un abghada il-abghadu ilayya. Shafi' said, there's nothing more hated to me min al-kalamu ahli. Shafi' said, there's nothing more hated to me min al-kalamu ahli.
It's the knowledge that was taken from, what's his name, Aristotle and the likes of these people. It's the knowledge that was taken from, what's his name, Aristotle and the likes of these people. Simple as.
Shafi'i rahim Allah he said, hukmi fi ahli al-kalami. My ruling, my ruling on the people of ilmul kalam is an yudhrabu bil jareedu wal ni'an. My ruling, my ruling on the people of ilmul kalam is an yudhrabu bil jareedu wal ni'an.
That they get beaten, lashed. Shafi'i is saying this, rahim Allah imam. How do they get beaten? Take branches from the tree, lash these people.
Take your shoes off and lash them. And they are paraded in the market. Wa yutafu bihim fil ashair.
Wa yunadda alihim. Hatha jaza'u man taraka al-kitabu al-sunnah wa akbala al-kalam. And they are paraded in the market.
Wa yutafu bihim fil ashair. Wa yunadda alihim. This is where it started from.
There was a man by the name of Ja'd Ibn Dirhamin. Ja'd Ibn Dirhamin. He went and sought knowledge from a man by the name of Aban Ibn Sam'an.
This Aban Ibn Sam'ani took it from Talut, Uqt Labid Ibn Al-Asam. Now you have to understand, Labid Ibn Al-Asam is the man who made, or who did magic on the Prophet ﷺ. This is the chain of this whole name and attributes of Allah discussion started. It started from Labid Ibn Al-Asam.
And this is something you have to understand. All the firaq, all the groups, they all started from disbelievers. Laqadariya Sawsan, who was a majusi.
From him, they took that concept from. The Shia, they took it from Abdullah Ibn Sab' Al-Yahudi. Asha'ira Al-Mu'tazila Wa Manaha An-Nahwahum.
Anyone who took their path, they go back to Labid Ibn Al-Asam in their concept. For that reason, Imam Al-Bukhari brings in his book, Khalku Af'ali Al-'Ibadi. He says, Shaheedtu, I was present when Khalid Ibn Abdullah Al-Qasri.
Khalid Ibn Abdullah Al-Qasri was the Muslim leader in Wasit. And he was a governor there. On the day of Yawm Al-Adha, the day of Eid Al-Adha, he said to the people, Irji'u, all of you go back.
Fadahhu and slaughter. Taqabbalallahu minkum. May Allah accept it from you.
It was Eid Al-Adha. He goes, all of you go and slaughter your animals. I'm going to slaughter Al-Ja'd Ibn Dirham.
Why? He has claimed Allah has not taken Ibrahim as his Khalil. Allah has not spoken to Musa. Allah is higher than all of that.
Yaqulu Ja'd Ibn Dirham. He then came down and he slaughtered him. He mentioned a story, and I'm going to conclude with that.
I think the time is going to finish, so just if I can conclude with this before the time finishes. Of course, of course. And he said, You can conclude because you did ask.
So if I can just conclude this story. Yaqulu Ja'd Ibn Dirham. Story is going to shock you.
Yaqulu Ja'd Ibn Dirham. He said, I heard Ibrahim Al-Balkhi saying, a man from the people of Maru. He was a friend of Ja'd Ibn Safwan.
Now Ja'd Ibn Dirham's student is Ja'd Ibn Safwan. This is where the belief of the Jami'ah started from, by the way. So this man, he was a friend of Ja'd Ibn Safwan.
They were very close friends. And he disconnected him. He stopped.
He didn't want to be with him. Why have you cut this man? Why are you no longer his friend? And then he said, What has come from Ja'd Ibn Safwan is something I cannot accept. This man has said things that I cannot tolerate.
He said, One day I recited a particular verse. Then he said, I forgot. The rawi, he forgot what ayah it was.
And then when he was reading the ayah, this man is reading it, Ja'd Ibn Safwan is listening. And when he recited the ayah, he said, He said, Wallahi, who's more smarter than Muhammad? And he's trying to say, Muhammad wrote the Quran. I tolerated it from him.
Then he recited Surah Taha. When he reached the ayah, He said, Ja'd Ibn Safwan is saying, If I could find a way where I can rub this verse out of the Mus'haf, I would have done it. This man said, I tolerated it from him.
Then I recited, Then he recited, sorry, Surah Al-Qasas. When he reached the story of Nabilahi Musa, he said, What is this? He's speaking to the Quran. He said, What is this? He mentions the story somewhere.
He doesn't finish it. Then he goes somewhere else and he doesn't finish it. And then he threw the Mus'haf on the ground.
He said, What is this? Then he said, I jumped on him. I became physical with him. Then what you have to understand is that, this is a very corrupt belief, but it goes somewhere.
It goes back to something very devilish. Like this man, Ja'd Ibn Safwan, the Ummah unanimously agreed upon his deviation. Of course, obviously with those statements, I'm not sure anybody listening would be tolerant of those kind of statements.
But I'm trying to understand something. You said this is where the belief that Jahmir came from. We're talking about the Asha'ara.
So what's that got to do with Jahmir Ibn Safwan? The great scholars of Asha'ara, they themselves came to, after their final moments in life, they realized what they were upon, the path that they were treading on, is a path of confusion. Let me just give you Fakhruddin Al-Razi. In response to your question, Fakhruddin Al-Razi, he said, نهاية اقدام العقول عقال وغاية السعي العالمين الضلال وأرواحنا في وحشة من جسومنا وحاصلوا دنيا أذى ووبال ولم نستفد من بحثنا طول عمرنا سوى أن جمعنا فيه قيل وقالوا And he's saying, all of our efforts that we exerted, all of the efforts that we did, all of those, Fakhruddin Al-Razi, all of that which I did, and what I've exerted, and what I did, and my research, and everything, I'm in a state of confusion.
All I've compiled is, he said, she said, I'm just confused. Now he says, my belief is, لقد تأملت طرق الكلامية I've looked at the philosophical arguments والمناهج الفلسفية and all the methodological philosophy roots. I've looked at all of them.
He said it. فما رأيتها تشفي علينا ولا تروي غلينا It does not quench the thirst of a person who's in need of knowledge and understanding. ولذلك فاكهردين الرازي he, يعني, imam in this field, they have said about him, وَقَدْ بَدَتْ مِنْهُ فِي تَوَالِيفِهِ بَلَايَ وَعَظَائِمٍ وَسِحْرٌ وَانْحِرَافَاتٍ عَنِ السُّنَّةِ وَاللَّهُ يَعْفُو عَنُهُ فَإِنَّهُ تُوفِي عَلَى طَرِيقَةٍ حَمِيدَةٍ وَاللَّهُ يَتَوَلَّ السَّرَائِينَ Dhabi, he said, in his works, there's corruption, great magical claims, كلام سحري وانحرافات عن السنة and a deviation from the sunnah that he said وَاللَّهُ يَعْفُو عَنُهُ And Allah will forgive him for it.
فَإِنَّهُ تُوفِي Because he died عَلَى طَرِيقَةٍ حَمِيدَةٍ He died on a good path. And Allah Ta'ala judges the people upon what's in their hearts. وَلِذَلَكِ ابْنَ حَجَرِ يُسَلِي لِزَانُ الْمِيزَانِ أَوْصَى بِوَصِيَةِ تَدُلُّ عَلَى أَنَّهُ حَسَنَ أَعْتِقَادَهُ He gave a wasiyah, which is that wasiyah I just read on you.
He gave that wasiyah. The wasiyah I just read on you. He gave it and he perfected his أَحْقِيْتَ ذَهَبِي إِمْنَ حَجَرِ يُسَلِي So that path, جَهَمُ الصَّفَانُ was upon جَعَدِ بِرِدِيرْ حَمِي This imam of the sha'arah took it and finally realized this is not working.
It doesn't fulfill the goal that we're trying to achieve. So I'm trying to make a distinction in my mind. Is this attribution of the sha'arah to ilmul kalam, Greek philosophy as you put it? Is this something that the salafis would say that the sha'arah, they took this kind of Greek philosophy into their belief? Or is this something that they themselves say as well? Like is this a claim that you're making or is this something that they attribute themselves to? Yeah, this is something they admit to.
They don't deny it. They just try to justify it by calling ilmul kalam praiseworthy and there's two types of ilmul kalam which is madhmum and mahmud and wahakada. They give those answers.
لكن We say ilmul kalam according to the salafis ممنوع They didn't allow it. Okay? Especially in issues of aqaid. They didn't allow it.
And anyone who used ilmul kalam whoever used it historically didn't use it as a form of evidence. They used it as an instrument to debunk people. But they took it as a form of belief.
This is the evidence. The evidence is ilmul kalam. And the Quran and the sunnah is what? It's no evidence.
And I think I've... Yeah, last time we were here. Okay. Let's get into the... Let's see.
That's a good foundation. بارك الله فيكم Let's go into the main topic and see how this foundation trickles down into this main topic. So, when we're talking about the names and attributes of Allah, I'm really talking about the kind of attributes that are relevant here are the things like Allah having hands, Allah having a shin, Allah having legs, a face, all of these kind of things.
And obviously, the claim here is that these are attributes that we also have as human beings. And therefore, there is this anthropomorphism happening here where you are actually likening Allah to His creation. What is the correct belief according to you or as you would say according to Ahlul Sunnah in terms of these kind of attributes? So, when it comes to nusus, sifat, Allah's names and attributes, the evidences that come, the Quran and the sunnah, the people are three types.
There is Ahlul Ta'atil. And I'll come back to that Insha'Allah Ta'ala. The second one is Ahlul Tamthil.
I'll use that word better. So, the first group are called Ahlul Ta'atil. And the second group are called Ahlul Tamthil.
And the third group are called Ahlul Sawail Samil. Let me go back to the first one. Okay.
The first group are called Ahlul Ta'atil. Ahlul Ta'atil are a people who've distorted Allah's names and attributes. And they've taken three ways to distort it.
They are, the first one is called Ahlul Taqheel. And that's the Maslakul Falasifah. They believe all of this Jannah, Nahr, Allah's characteristics, all of that.
Taqheel. That's myths. The second group are called Ahlul Tajheel.
And these are the ones who took the Maslakul Tafweed. Yeah, they said we don't know the meaning of these characteristics as a form of distortion. And the third group is Ahlul Ta'weel.
Those who distorted it by giving an interpretation. I'm gonna come to each one of those. Or we're gonna come to it in the podcast.
The second group is, so we've finished Ahlul Ta'atil. Yeah, that brings down to three. Some of them say that it's all just fairytale, magical stuff.
Kind of like what they say, metaphorical. Metaphor, yeah. Is that fair to say? Yeah, but they're more worse than that because they believe these verses have a Baatini belief.
We're not, that's not the path that we're... We're not gonna talk too much about that. Yeah, because they're not the issue we're suffering from now. The second group say, we don't know the meaning of these words.
Like when Allah says he has a hand, for example, we don't know what the meaning is, but Allah knows. So there's two groups that we're gonna, I think, inshallah, we're gonna focus on these two groups. Ahlul Ta'weel and Ahlul Tafweel.
Yes. Now, Ahlul Ta'weel and Ahlul Tafweel, they're under Ahlul Ta'atil. They are distorters of Allah's name and attributes.
But they took two paths. Okay, these two paths that's taken is that Ta'weel or Tafweel. So what does both mean? First of all, they both have something in common and they also differ on something.
Okay, go ahead. What they both have in common is that the Mu'awwil and the Mu'fawwud, both of them agree that the Zahir Ghayra Murad. The Zahir is not intended.
Okay, yeah. The Mu'awwil and the Mu'fawwud say, yes, it's true. When we read Ar-Rahmanu Ala Al-Arshi Istawa Ala Wartafa that's not the Murad that's intended, they'd say.
The Mu'awwil would say that's not what is intended. The Mu'fawwud would say that's not intended. The difference between the two is the Mu'awwil will give it another meaning.
Yeah, which is distortion, like you said. So this is where Tafweel does come into. I'm going to prove both of them are distortion.
I'm going to come to it, inshallah, as it unfolds. The second group, which is the Mu'fawwud, what they do is that they then say, we don't know. The Zahir is not Murad.
So they've negated the apparent meaning of the verse. But then they said, with that being said, we don't know what the meaning is. So they don't assert a meaning.
And they say Allah knows. Only Allah knows. That's what they say.
So the Mu'awwil and the Mu'fawwud are like that. Now let's go to the next group, which are Ahl al-Tamtheel. Ahl al-Tamtheel are those who affirm the characteristics for Allah, but they give it a like.
They like it to the creation. Now, this is important that we understand it because it really breaks down the whole discussion properly. Ahl al-Tamtheel, Ishaq ibn al-Rahuyah, however you want to say it, both ways it can be said, who is a friend of al-Imam al-Ahmad.
He's a Shaykh of al-Imam al-Bukhari and Naimat al-Sunnah, Naimat al-Hadith, Dawawin al-Hadith, you'll find them. Ishaq ibn al-Rahuyah, he clarified what is al-Tamtheel. He said, I'm at Tashbih.
He said, Inna ma yakoonu tashbihu law qeela yadun ka yadin wa sama'un ka sama'in. Ahl al-Tamtheel, what they did is they took Allah's characteristics and they likened it to the creation, which is what you were talking about, anthropomorphism. They likened the characteristics of Allah to the creation.
Al-Imam Ishaq ibn al-Rahuyah says, it means when the person says, Allah's hand is like the hand of this hand, or his hearing is the likes of this hearing. Understand? Okay. That connection has to be made for someone to be in Shabbiha, for someone to fall into.
Anyone who says otherwise, Ha'tu burhanakum yankutum sadeqeen. Ishaq is al-Imam, both parties agree with. He's min al-Immati al-Salaf, al-Shaykh al-Imam al-Bukhari.
He's the Shaykh of al-Imam, he's the one who brought the idea of compiling Sahih al-Bukhari. Who compiled it? Who gave the idea? Ishaq ibn al-Rahuyah did. Bukhari got the idea from his teacher, Ishaq ibn al-Rahuyah.
Ishaq is the friend of al-Imam Ahmed. So this is early Imams. Ahl al-Sawa'i al-Sabeel, which we hope to be from them.
What are they like? They believe, Ahl al-Sawa'i al-Sabeel believe, Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la has names and attributes. They're present in the Quran. What we do is, these characteristics Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la, we affirm it for him.
We affirm it. من غير تعطيل ولا تحريف ومن غير تكيف ولا تمثيل I'm going to explain that later insha'Allah. Al-Imam al-Shafi'i, Muhammad ibn Idris al-Shafi'i said, أصل قرآن والسنة The Asl is the Quran and the Sunnah.
فإن لم يكن فقياس عليهم The Asl is the Quran and the Sunnah, correct? If they're not present, what do we do? We do Qiyas. وإذا اتصل الحديث عن رسول الله وصح الإسناد عنه فهو سنة والإجماع أكثر من الخبر المنفردي والحديث على ظاهري وإذا احتمل المعاني فما أشبه منها ظاهر أو لا به What I mean by that is that we take the Quran and the Sunnah and the Ijma' In this chapter of Haqeedah, we don't take Qiyas. Qiyas is in Fiqh.
أهل السنة, what do they do? أهل السواء السبيل, what do they do? أهل السواء السبيل, they took the Quran and the Sunnah and the unanimous agreement of the three noble generation. Everything I mentioned here, Inshallah Ta'ala, I'll bring a verse for it. حديث الإجماع Fine.
I'm not going to bring you the كلام of the متأخرين. محمد عبد الحائل said this. ابن تيمة said this.
ابن قدامة said this. ابن رجب said this. I'm not going to bring that.
I'm saying to you, let's stick to the three noble generation. Okay. ابن عبد البارك transmitted a consensus on this issue.
إجماع And there's no difference of opinion that the Salaf had on this issue. And I'll state each Imam who said it. I'll name it for you, Inshallah.
ابن عبد البارك رحمه الله He said, أهل السنة مجمعون The unanimous This is أهل السواء السبيل. على إقرار بهذه الصفات To affirm all these characteristics الواردة في الكتاب والسنة that are present in the Quran and the Sunnah. ولم يكيفوا شيئا منها They never placed a how for any of these characteristics.
وأما الجهمية والمعتزلة والخوارج Those are from 72 groups, right? فقالوا, Anyone who affirms these characteristics أهل السنة What do they call these people? المعتزلة The خوارج And the جهمية What do they call them? They call them أهل التعطيل Storters Negators of Allah's Names and Attributes ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها وذل الذين يلحدون في أسمائه يعني Allah's Names and Attributes They did Ilhad of Allah's Names and Attributes Last person I'm going to mention for you And I think his كلاب يستحق ويكتب بماء ذهب To write this with ink of gold Because ابن عبد البربوثي اجمع This great imam brings their names Each one And I think honestly after this And you can stop the discussion here And the whole podcast could be over But I have some more questions for sure I wonder what you have on those Inshallah أبو عيسى الترمذي رحمه الله تعالى And his جامع And Imam al-Tirmidhi has a جامع All parties agree upon This great imam And we all agree And Imam al-Tirmidhi رحمه الله تعالى In his جامع He has a كتاب called كتاب الزكاة And in there he's got a chapter called باب فضل الصدقة باب فضل الصدقة He speaks about the حديث إن الله يقبل الصدقة The حديث where the Prophet said Allah accepts the صدقة ويأخذها بيمينه And Allah takes the صدقة with his right فيربيها لأحدكم Allah nurtures that صدقة for you Abu عيسى الترمذي Comments on that حديث The حديث is the characteristics of Allah Not just a hand but a right hand Look what he says He says وَقَدْ قَالَ غَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ More than one imam from the Salaf said في الحديث In this حديث وَمَا يُشْبِهُ هَذَا مِنَ الرِّوَيَاتِ All of the narrations that are similar to this All the نصوص الصفات That are similar to this من الصفات ونزول الرب Allah descending تبارك وتعالى كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ لِلسَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا Allah descending The last day of the night The حديث I mentioned it This is what the علماء أهل السنة said قَالوا تَثْبُتُ الرِّوَيَاتُ فِي هَذَا These narrations are authentic وَيُؤْمَنُوا بِهَا وَلَا يُتَوَهَمُوا We believe in them وَلَا يُتَوَهَمُوا We don't have speculation doubts regarding it وَلَا يُقَالُوا كَيفُ We can't say how We can't say it هَا كَذَا رُوِيَ عَنْ مَالِكِ وَسُفْيَانِ بْنُ عُيَيْنَ وَعَبْدِ اللَّهِ مِنُ مُّبَارَكِ أَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا All of them they said قَالُوا فِي هَذِي الْأَحَدِيدِ أَمِرُوهَا بِلَا كَيْفٍ Go over these verses Without any how وَهَا كَذَا قَوْلُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ مِنْ أَهْلِ السُّنَّةِ وَالْجَمَعَةِ And this is the goal of the people of knowledge from Ahlul Sunnah Who took from Malik Who took from Sufyan Ibn Uyayna Abdillah Ibn Mubarak and their lies What did they say? وَقَدْ ذَكَرَ اللَّهُ عَزِى وَجَلَى فِي غَيْرِ مُوضِحٍ مِنْ كِتَابِهِ الْيَدِ In more than one place Allah mentioned in the Quran So I won't ask to count the characteristics he mentions Then later when we go into the discussion Showing you that the way that the Sha'arah categorized the Sifat Did Al-Imam Tirmidhi consider that categorization to be any base? Look what he said He says وَقَدْ ذَكَرَ اللَّهُ عَزِى وَجَلَى فِي غَيْرِ مُوضِحٍ مِنْ كِتَابِهِ الْيَدَةِ Allah affirmed in more than one place الْيَدَةِ وَالسَّمْعَةِ Allah hearing وَالبَصَرَةِ And seeing These three characteristics we mentioned One of the characteristics الْيَدَةِ أَشَعَرَونَ Never affirmed it They will say no I don't affirm this one But we are hearing and seeing We affirm those characteristics الحمد لله He connected three of them together He didn't make a distinction He didn't make a distinction either Look what he said فَتَأَوَّلَتِ الْجَهْمِيَةِ Point number two I want you to point Underline for me here is that فَتَأَوَّلَتِ الْجَهْمِيَةِ The جَهْمِيَةِ gave تَأْوِيل إذن تَأْوِيل Comes from the جَهْمِيَةِ Hold the point number two What did they do to it فَتَأَوَّلَتِ الْجَهْمِيَةِ هَذِهِ الْآيَاتِ The جَهْمِيَّةِ They did تَأْوِيل of these verses نُصُصُ صِفَات And تَأْوِيل meaning They turned it from its apparent meaning They gave another meaning to it صحيح فَفَسَّرُوهَا عَلَىٰ غَيْرِ مَا فَسَرَ أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ They gave a تَفْسِير to it Other than the تَفْسِير of the people of the علم That's point number three From the كلام of Imam Abu Isa Which is They gave a تَفْسِير to it A تَأْوِيل to it Other than the تَفْسِير that was given by who أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ have a تَفْسِير for these نُصُص الْيَدُ والسَّبْعُ والبَصَر Okay There's a تَفْسِير according to أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ Who did he say that was أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ If you look at the beginning of his statement He says The أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ he's referring to is مَالِك سُفِيَرِ مِنُ عُيَيْنَةِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ مِنُ مُمَارَكِ And he's referring to وَهَكَذَا قَوْلُ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ مِنْ أَهْلِ السُّنَّةِ So أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ he's talking about أَهْلُ السُّنَّةِ Okay, no problem There's a تَفْسِير جَهْمِيٌ And there's a تَفْسِير من أَهْلِ السُّنَّةِ Underline that point That's point number three for me Then he said What is the تَفْسِير they gave وَقَالُوا They said إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يَخْلُقَ آدَمَ بِيَدِهِ وَقَالُوا They said إِنَّ مَعْنَا الْيَدِ هَاهُنَا الْقُوَّةِ The جَهْمِيَة said The تَفْسِير of the جَهْمِيَة Is that يَدْ here in this characteristics is what Strength or power or whatever That's what they said إِذَنَّ الشَّاعِرَةُ تُكْتَأْ فِي الْجَهْمِيَةِ When they interpreted And they gave the تَفْسِير Of يَدْ مِنْ قُوَّةِ This is a تَفْسِير جَهْمِيٌ Point that out for me Then he said something very powerful Which والله This كلام by itself as I said to you in the beginning يَسْتَحَقُوا أَن يُكْتَوَ بِمَا إِذْ ذَهَبُ This statement by itself should be written in ink of gold And I honestly believe If this was put to any Honest person والله And read it and went over again Would understand that this is what The Salafis are calling to, that's all we're saying Look what he said الإمام مالك سفياني بن عيينة And عبد الله المبارك, these are three imams right Yeah Would anybody dispute who they are Okay When it comes to all of these They said أَمِرُوهَا بِلَا كِفٍ Go over it without any how I'm going to speak about that in great details later Then he said أَهْلُ السُّنَّة The people of knowledge They Follow that path of مالك سفياني بن عيينة عبد الله المبارك A group went against all of them Who are they They negated those narrations They rejected those narrations They interpreted them They rejected وَقَالُوا هَذَا تَشْبِيهُ These characteristics are all تشبيه شاهد This point is very important for me When these people see Allah saying يَد These characteristics What comes to their head straight away is تشبيه They are مشبهة They call us مشبهة They are the مشبهة When they see these characteristics they see تشبيه So this is exactly what جَهْمِيَة did When they saw these نصوص وَقَالُوا هَذَا تَشْبِيهُ So then in order to fight with that تشبيه I just ran to their mind what did they do فَتَأْوَلَتِ الجَهْمِيَةُ هَذِي الْآيَاتِ They interpreted it فَفَصَّرُوهَا عَلَى غَيْنِ مَا فَسَرْ أَهْلُ الْعَالِمِ The interpretation they gave Is different to the interpretation of the people of knowledge شاهد There's two interpretations After that and then what was their interpretation They said يَدْهِيَة It means هَا هُنَا الْقُوَّة جَهْمِيَة saying this Then look what he said he wants to comment on their argument That these نصوص These texts تشبيه يَدُ اللهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِ مَا مَنْعَكَ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ وَيَبْقَى وَجْهُ رَبِّكَ ذِي الْجَلَالِ وَالْإِكْرَامِ الرَّحْمَنُ عَلَى الْأَرْشِ اِسْتَوَأْيُ All of these characteristics they said تشبيه Tirmidh wants to debunk them He said وَقَالَ إِسْحَاقُ بِالْإِبْرَاهِيمِ نعني إسحاق بالرهوية said إِنَّمَا يَكُونُ التَّشْبِيهُ إِذَا قَالَ يَدٌ كَيَدٍ أو مِثْلُ يَدٍ أو سَمْعٍ كَسَمْعٍ أو مِثْلُ سَمْعٍ If they say that The قول I mentioned before This gives us understanding of Two groups have been debunked Clearly and categorically By who? The مُؤَوِّلَة Who did تَأْوِيل جَهْمِيَة The first people who did it Were the جَهْمِيَة We can discuss that more And the second group of people he debunked The مُفَوِّضَة Who don't believe these Have any meaning in it He debunked them by saying There is a تَفسِيرُ of the جَهْمِيَة And there is a تَفسِيرُ of the أَهْلُ العِلْم So أَهْلُ العِلْم did تَفسِيرُ of these نُصُّص But he is saying Not the تَفسِيرُ of the جَهْمِيَة But the مُفَوِّضَة they don't believe These نُصُّص They don't believe it has any meaning It's just words that are written there We can discuss it more Okay so let's go into it in a bit more detail First of all the issue of تَأْوِيل Which is saying that these words That come in the Quran for example They have a different meaning to the apparent meaning And we interpret it in a different way Like for example the word يَد Not meaning hand but meaning قوة And things like that I've actually got statements of the salaf And even the companions themselves Make in تَأْوِيل They actually take these kind of Ayaat from the Quran And they interpret it differently You want to go through them first? Okay so the first one you're going to bring is تَأْوِيل So the listeners can keep up with us In Sha Allah Ta'ala I don't know what you're going to go into deeply But let me just say one thing for the viewers To know تَأْوِيل and there's تَفْوِض Okay The تَأْوِيل and the تَفْوِض تَأْوِيل means And the نُصُّص الصفات These characteristics and attributes Those verses that come regarding Allah's Names and attributes They say يَجِبُ حَمْلُهَا It is obligatory to take those verses عَلَى خِلَافِ ظَاهِرِهَا We have to take it in other than its apparent meaning When Allah said in the ayah مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقَتُ بِيَدَيْ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقَتُ بِيَدَيْ أَسْتَكْبَرَتَ أَن كُنْتَ مِنَ الْعَالِيمِ Iblis What prevented you to prostrate What stopped you from prostrating What is not Why are you refusing to prostrate to the one Adam Who I created with my two hands They say the ظاهر Is not what we should take What should we do We should take it other than its ظاهر Why, what's your reason The reason is because The ظاهر, the apparent meaning It has in it تشبيه Automatically You can't strip it out of that That's what they're saying And then so the مؤولة are saying Now since that's the case We can't take the ظاهر Because the ظاهر has تشبيه So what do we do They introduce a meaning They what, introduce a meaning From themselves, they say this is the meaning for it Allah says in the Quran إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُجَادِلُونَ فِي آيَاتِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرُ السُّلْطَالِ أَتَاهُمْ إِنْ فِي صُدُورِهِمْ إِلَّا كِبْرُوا مَا هُمْ بِبَالِغِهِ فَاسْتَعِيدُ بِاللَّهِ إِنَّهُ اسْتَمِعُوا الْبَصِيرُ I believe they are arguing in the verses of Allah With no proofs and evidence So you're saying they literally pluck this meaning Out of thin air and they insert it in the Quran This is a problem that happened And I want you to go back to it The word يد Again, they're not saying That the apparent meaning is what is intended I just said that to you The مؤول, the one who's doing تأويل He's saying the ظاهر The ظاهر has تشبيه in it And by ظاهر you mean hand If we're going to translate يد into English You mean hand We say يد, we keep it Because translation is another language And we don't go there يد, if you loosely want to translate it as hand That's up to you But I'm saying to يد, this is what the ayah uses The يد of Allah سبحانه وتعالى When they see that, they see تشبيه So they negate the تشبيه that's in their head How they may give a meaning to it I now want to say These characteristics of Allah Like مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدْ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيْ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ Are four questions for them General And then we go to each one in details I have two responses to them الرد which is إجمالي And الرد which is تفصيلي When you say these characteristics means this First of all I say stop أَكَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَعْلَمُ Did the Prophet know That the meaning Of these characteristics is what you guys have taken Yes They would say yes The Prophet knew it So the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم knew That الرحمن على الأرش استوى Is استولى They've got two options They either can say yes or no We know the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم Is the most knowledgeable إِنَّ أَتْقَاكُمْ وَعَلَمُكُمْ بِاللَّهِ أَنَا The Prophet knew Allah more than anybody Good So the question is this Did the Prophet know this That's good The Prophet knew الرحمن على الأرش استوى I ask you the second question أَكَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم Was the Prophet the most eloquent of people Yes He was very eloquent in his speech He could speak Allah تبارك وتعالى Chose him to clarify everything So with his He was eloquent right The third question I have Is that هَلْ كَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم حَرِيصًا عَلَى أُمَّتِهِ شَفِيقًا مُرِيدًا لَهَا الْخَيْرُ Was the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم concerned for his Ummah Yeah he was Did he want خير for his Ummah Because Allah said in the Quran عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِمَا عَنِتُهُ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُمْ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَعُوفٌ رَحِيمٌ If the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم Was knowledgeable مَعَ كَمَالِ العِلْمِ بِاللَّهِ He had great knowledge of Allah سبحانه وتعالى وَكَمَالِ الفَصَاحَةِ And he was the most eloquent of people And he was the most sincerest and wanted خير for his Ummah Why did he not Why is it not being brought to us Him saying الرَّحْمَانُ عَلَى الْأَرْشِ استَوَى Means استولى Give me one place where he said it Okay two responses for that First response is that it was known at the time That it couldn't have mean يَدْ Could not mean يَدْ literally Upon the Zahir It was known at the time we have other ayat that tell you that Allah is not like anything So for example if you say يَدْ The companions know that we can't affirm A hand for Allah It was known at the time He didn't need to go into it This is where the problem comes to you then You said You used to negate يَدْ You said I'm not going to affirm يَدْ for Allah Because يَدْ It means I'm going to Fall into تَشْبِي I'm making Allah similar to His creation Then why did you affirm يَا أَشَاعِرَةَ Why have you chosen to affirm seven characteristics Of Allah You chose to affirm these seven And the rest you chose to negate it The seven characteristics The poet he said لَهُ الْحَيَاةُ وَالْكَلَامُ وَالْبَصَرُ سَمْعٌ إِرَادَةٌ وَعِلْمٌ وَاقْتَدَرٌ You affirmed life for Allah You affirmed speech for Allah You affirmed seeing for Allah Hearing إِرَادَةٌ وَعِلْمٌ وَاقْتَدَرٌ These are seven characteristics you affirmed يَا أَشَاعِرَةَ These seven that you affirmed Let's just take two of them السَّمْعُ وَالْبَصَرُ Hearing Hearing and seeing Let's not go far Hearing And seeing Allah affirmed it for himself لَيْسَ كَمِتْ لِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِعُ البَصِيرُ Allah is one who sees and one who hears Also in سُرَةُ الْإِنسَانِ He said هَلَ تَعَلَى الْإِنسَانِ حَيْلُ مِنَ الْدَهْرِ لَمْ يَكُنْ شَيْءً مَذْكُرًا وَإِنَّا خَرَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ مِنْ نُطُفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَبَتَرِيهُ فَجَعَلْنَهُ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا Allah affirmed for the human beings السَّمْعُ وَالْبَصَرُ They can see and we can hear And Allah affirmed it for himself My question to you is السَّمْعُ وَالْبَصَرُ is present in the creation Why hasn't those two characteristics when you were affirming it تشبيه never came to your mind Why did يد تشبيه come to you for it Okay, now we're going into another topic which is the difference between صفات العقلية and صفات الخبرية The seven that you say that Asha'a Allah affirmed for example Their answer to that question is that these characteristics are different from يَد or سَاق These are different because our intellect shows us that Allah has these characteristics Can I respond to that then? Let me just explain the argument first before you do We know that Allah is a creator and a sustainer of the universe For him to be the creator and a sustainer of the universe he has to have knowledge, power, hearing, seeing all of these things But does he have to have a hand for example? Does he have to have a shin? No, not to create the universe and to sustain it That's the argument they put forward You affirm knowledge because Allah is the creator Correct They're saying that we affirm علم for Allah because we see all of these مخلوقات And to bring them about you must have had knowledge First of all they say ability They say ability has to be there The reason why we say Allah's قدرة is because وجود هذه المخلوقات shows ability And then they say الاتقان The way he's perfected shows us what? That he has إرادة And he can't have إرادة unless he has علم وهكذا they give it What about حكمة? Wisdom Characteristics of wisdom Is it not needed as much as knowledge is needed? Why do you affirm حكمة for him? It's not in your seven characteristics Another question I have I'm going to ask The دليل of عقل They're saying our evidence is عقل, right? عقل shows many other characteristics I can prove many The fact that Allah has destroyed a group of people shows that he's angry with these people The fact that he's given bliss and blessing to a group of people means he's pleased with them Of course it doesn't necessarily mean that Some of the kuffar in the dunya have Not the dunya The fact that Allah is punishing a group of people with a hellfire shows he's angry with these people And the fact that he's taken a group of people And I'm just talking about if you go according to عقل عقل proves all of this Question I bring it back to But it will never prove hand or shin Of course it does How does the عقل prove hand? Beautiful Just because the عقل has shown these characteristics It doesn't mean he negated the rest Okay You have to bring عقل for affirmation and negation But we have to negate them No no no Just stick to عقل You're saying I'm affirming these characteristics because the عقل showed it Agreed I'm flipping the table on you I'm saying the عقل didn't also negate it It does and I'll tell you why So for these characteristics I don't have to No no no The عقل understanding of the ayah in the Quran They don't just reject the Quran either They totally And they say none of these ayahs we don't take any of them They understand the ayahs using the عقل So we have an ayah that says Allah is not like anybody Not like any of the creation I have to reject the fact that he's got a hand Because عقل and I don't really need it Because they believe it's تشبيه But these ones I have to affirm it Even though the human being has سمع And بصر I have to affirm it because my intellect shows That Allah needs these things to create the universe So you're not using the عقل Or you're using لسه كمية which is an ayah But when we use معقل of understanding that They wouldn't reject that ayah I'm saying to you See this is where it really gets hard And pressure gets poor On the شاعر When you said that these characteristics علم and قدرة and سمع And بصر and the seven you affirmed I affirmed it with عقل My question is simple and easy It's not complicated The عقل that Affirmed علم Should affirm حكمة Are we all together? If you say I affirm علم for Allah What about حكمة? Wisdom That's not in your seven That's one Second thing is that The عقل never negated it For the sake of argument It didn't negate it That's one answer I want to give you So these other غضب واليد والساق It didn't negate it But there are قراءة that do negate it That's my point Another question I have is Just because The عقل didn't guide you to these characteristics Sorry I actually want to go back Because there is a response to that The عقل does negate hand Because why do we need a hand Is to use it to do something Allah doesn't need things Allah doesn't need a hand That's my This is where my argument is You're comparing Allah to the creation automatically By saying that the reason for Allah's hand Is the حاجة for it The word يد does that automatically No it doesn't If you want to make that weird then it doesn't Yeah but سمع البصر still say Seeing and the hearing Allah has them because He needs them We're not going to say need Whatever you say about يد can be said about any of the characteristics you affirm No there is a difference First difference is We know that He's the creator and sustainer of the universe If He's sustaining the universe Then it must be a means for Him to hear us He hears us, He sees us Because that's how He sustained the universe As for the hand it's got nothing to do with creating or sustaining the universe Okay let me just for the sake of argument I have three answers I've got The first reason I wanted to respond to Is that Your عقل If your عقل has affirmed these characteristics Okay The عقل That you used for this The عقل Has also shown other things Like حكمة for example And many more All of those characteristics I can prove it to you In the same way that you've proven it I don't know why you don't want to take it Because you're not able to be consistent Second reason I want to say is Even for the sake of argument If I say the عقل didn't show غضب واليد والساق It didn't show it But It negated either way And the قاعدة is عدم العلم ليس علما بالعدم Just because you don't have knowledge of these other ones Doesn't mean it's It's not there Another thing is that I'm saying to you I have something more superior Than the عقل I have نقل, text I'm saying the text has proven these characteristics But how do you understand that? I'm not saying to you But the عقل affirmed it So the نقل affirmed it It doesn't affirm the meaning, it just affirms the wording And last but not least My last question regarding this is that This يد that you negated What did you Okay, what do we do with it now? It's there in front of us, what do we do with it? We either make تأويل Okay, give us a تأويل of it For example, power Okay, stop there Power, you were running away From it, you're still in it Power is present in the creation We've got قدرة as well Also You ran away from it, you said يد means قدرة Okay, no problem, let's For the sake of argument قدرة is present in the human being I have قدرة, you have قدرة Allah Ta'ala has قدرة Whatever you say about قدرة I'll say about يد And if the response is that our قدرة is not the same as Allah's قدرة You can say about it Fine So you haven't That issue is Another thing, don't you see what's happening here right now You're saying all of those times That the verses of the Quran was coming down On the Sahabas and the Prophet Multiple places He says I swear by the Lord He says I swear by the Lord That my nafs is in his hand All of those times he says that And all of the time The word يد has come in the Quran The apparent meaning was never intended So then the Quran is calling The Sahabas and everybody to تشبيه Look how dangerous this is How many places Does the characteristics of Allah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim Just Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim Seven times it comes in the Quran In that way Ar-Rahman The other ways that it comes in يَخَافُونَ رَبَّهُمْ مِنْ فَوْقِهِمْ يَعْمِنْتُمْ مَنْ فِي السَّمَاءِ All of those places All of those the Zahir was never intended So we're reading a book We're reading a Quran That the Zahir is not intended Don't you think this can open the door of I want two things for us to understand Please Two things I want us to understand This ayah is من آيات الصفات This ayah is من آيات الصفات This ayah is from the ayat of the صفات of Allah تبارك وتعالى Is different from This is characteristics of Allah What do you mean There are other things that can prove Allah تبارك وتعالى's characteristics And this ayah scholars might dispute Whether it's from the آيات الصفات They might say you know what this is not from the آيات الصفات But doesn't that necessitate confusion No it doesn't An ayah doesn't necessarily have to be Because Allah تبارك وتعالى might say Like يوم يكشف عن ساقن و يدعون إلى سجون فلا يستطيعون يوم يكشف عن ساقن Okay ساقن here And he's not characteristics of Allah This ayah is not even talking about any The characteristics of Allah is affirmed with hadith We don't affirm it from this ayah This ayah is not من آيات الصفات Okay wait wait ساق in English Because we do have an English speaking audience It means shin upon the ظاهر upon the apparent You're saying that this ayah does not prove that Allah has a shin No But you're saying the hadith does This ayah يوم يكشف عن ساقن Is talking about something totally different It's got nothing to do with shin So that shows that we don't take the ظاهر No it's not The ظاهر for this is different How can you have two ظاهر Of course you could Like The ظاهر is a shin And now you're also saying the ظاهر is also How can something have two ظاهر What is what دابة mean in the Arabic language Like animal, beast, whatever دابة means all of that right Even the Even the Ants and حشرات is a دابة Right And then دابة the Arabs They say دابة is كل ما يدب على الأرض من الحيوانات والحشرات If I say استويت على الدابة Which in English means I rid on top of a دابة What are you going to understand it as Like a camel or donkey or something Why not ant So what I mean is that You have to understand But that's because Because you put it in a context now Of course The ayah in the context it is It's understood, no one ever said this ayah No one used this ayah We're proving Allah's shin from hadiths Not from this ayah Don't force a دليل you brought And then make it This ayah is ظاهر for something else And Arabs use it It's معروف عند العرب Look at مجد الطبري يكشف عن ساقن It's معروف, Arabs use it in that way And it's ما يتبادر إلى الذهن They know it in that way This is not من آيات الصفات So what I say is that آيات الصفات is known This path of تأويل is not And we don't believe it Also I have a question I want to respond to the point that It necessitates confusion But you're saying that وَبَدَاءَ وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنْتُمْ Do you believe Allah is with you everywhere you are So Allah before that look what he said He said يَعْلَمُ مَا يَرِجُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ يَعْلَمُ knowledge And the ending of the ayah Allah says وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرً وَالسِّيَاقُ مِنَ الْمُقِيِّدَاتِ So بصير, not عليم So وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ Means علم Let me finish, it's between two words يَعْلَمُ مَا يَرِجُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرً That's two The context explains that And number two, this is اجْمَع There is no difference of opinion وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ اجْمَع That it means بِعِلْمِهِ It's اجْمَع And so I want to know what is اجْمَع That يَدْ means خُزَرَ Rather bring me one salaf who said it, let alone اجْمَع I interrupted you, we're going to make another point Do you remember what the point was? I interrupted you and said I want to go back to this I can't remember You can't, okay fine So, the point that I'm trying to get at Is that if you're saying تَأْوِيل Is not allowed And you actually called it No, I'm saying تَأْوِيل is allowed with conditions Okay, what are the conditions now? Four conditions تَأْوِيل سائق تَأْوِيل غَيْرُ سائق When we negate تَأْوِيل, we're talking about the type of تَأْوِيل they do Which is not acceptable Anyone who wants to do تَأْوِيل First of all, he has to explain to us اِحْتِمَالُ اللَّفظِ لِلْمَعْنَةِ اِحْتِمَالُ اللَّفظِ لِلْمَعْنَةِ You have to explain to us This word Remember we said that the ظَاهِر The opposite of ظَاهِر is مُؤَوَّل But the مُؤَوَّل is a lower percentage of the word So for example, if I say رَأَيْتُ أَسَدًا Straight away what's coming to your mind? I saw a lion Okay, and then I said to you رَأَيْتُ أَسَدًا يَخْطُبْ I saw a lion giving a خُطْبَ Then automatically you're a courageous guy A brave man giving a خُطْبَ In the middle of the battlefield, something like that is going to come to your mind Right? So I have to give you the قَرِيلَ Turn this away from it So I need to give you First of all I have to give you the possibility that this word can take this In the Arabic language? Yes, number two If the word can take many meanings in the Arabic language Why did you specifically choose this one? You have to give it to us The لَفْظِ is مُتَشَابِح It's a لَفْظِ which is مُشْتَرَك The لَفْظِ is مُتَشَابِح The لَفْظِ is مُشْتَرَك It has many meanings, why did you specify this one? The third condition for a تأويل which is accepted is إِقَامَةُ الدَّلِيلِ الصَّارِفِ لِلَّخْضِ عَنْظَاهِرِ You have to give me an evidence that turned this word From its apparent meaning An evidence, I need an evidence Because the أَصَلِ is what? The ظَاهِرِ is the أَصَلِ And the حَقِقَةِ is the أَصَلِ Why did you leave the أَصَلِ for? Number four is any contention that is brought You have to be able to respond to it Because the one who is upon The ظَاهِرِ and the حَقِقَةِ Doesn't have to respond to anything He's upon the أَصَلِ Those four are the conditions that are set If you follow those four conditions We have no problem So let's go into, because this is something that is brought forward quite a lot The تأويل of the سَلَفِ for example So the آية وَجَاءَ رَبُّكَ وَالْمَلَكُ سَفَّنْ صَفَّةً Ahmad Ibn Khambaz said وَجَاءَ رَبُّكَ Does not mean وَجَاءَ رَبُّكَ It means وَجَاءَ أَمْرُ رَبِّكَ So he's actually inserted a word here He's not just given a تأويل He's put a word in here So that doesn't meet your four conditions Beautiful, and Imam Ahmad That statement that was transmitted from him Which is وَجَاءَ أَمْرُ رَبِّكَ Where he said that first of all It was not authentically transmitted from him And it's not صحيح That Imam Ahmad said this And What is the reason For this weakness is Hambal Ibn Ishaq is in the chain Even though he's the cousin of Ahmad Ibn Hambal Hambal Ibn Ishaq But as Imam Al-Zahabi mentioned He is one who Goes against the other students Of Ahmad Ibn Hambal So Imam Al-Zahabi said له مسائل كثيرة He has many issues عن أحمد و يتفرد و يغرب There's many issues That he narrates from Ahmad Ibn Hambal He's very strange in It's very important So he comes with غرائب That's what I Also none of the students of Ahmad Ibn Hambal Like Khalal and Maruthi And the sons of Ahmad, none of them Transmitted this Also Ibn Rajab Al-Hambali in his كتاب فتح الباري Which is شرح صحيح البخاري Ibn Rajab's مآيمة المذهب He didn't like it And Ibn Hamid he said رأيت بعض أصحابنا عن أبي عبد الله في الإتيان أنه قال تأتي قدرته وهذا على حد التوهم من قائل وخطأ في إضافته إليه So this is wrong, it's a mistake on their behalf They transmitted it from this So we believe this transmission from Ahmad Ibn Hambal is not صحيح If you haven't brought anything from It's not صحيح then it's not accepted There's another similar one though, Imam Malik When he's talking about Allah descending to He said this is the أمر of Allah The command of Allah Where did he insert this word in It's not the four conditions, like you said it has to be Within the Arabic language This is another word he's put in Again, it's not authentically transmitted from Imam Malik Do you have the Sanad for it? No I might be wrong or right But the viewers can check it out Imam Malik in the chain is a man صالح and حبيب And this حبيب And the scholars they critiqued him Severely He said about him That my father never praised this man And he's a liar Even the scholars reached it And his narrations are موضوع, fabricated And even Ibn Nasa'i or Ibn Abi Hatim Someone said that he lies About the ثقات, he puts hadith In the ثقات, the reliable people So that's also not authentically transmitted from Imam Malik Let's go into the The حبيب The تأوى that you would accept So for example the ساق in the آية سورة القلم, Ibn Abbas for example Said this does not mean شن, this means شدة So the four conditions you laid out This fits the four conditions you claim This آية is not أصل In the discussion, why are you using this آية It's not آية صفة, it does not mean آية الصفات My discussion with you is this آية First we agree, it means آية الصفات Once we agree It means آية الصفات, then you can say The salaf said this about me I will have a discussion with you because I believe وَجَاءَ رَبُّكَ وَالْمَلَكُ صَفًا Allah is coming Okay I think we've comprehensively Gone over the issue of تأويل Which is taking a word From the Quran and giving it a different Meaning to the apparent meaning I now want to move on to the issue of تفويل Which is when a word comes to the Quran And the person says It has a meaning, it does have a meaning And I don't give it another meaning either, but they just say I don't know what the meaning is, Allah knows What the meaning is, that's what I want to go into Now, you mentioned before The قول of تنمذي And how you believe it actually negates تأويل And تفويل, you don't have to say the whole statement Again, but which element from that Just to refresh my memory Do you believe it negates تفويل Which is the person saying, Allah knows what the meaning is The part that negates it Is when he said That the Salaf, they gave a تفسير to it يعني أهل العلم They gave a تفسير to it Other than the تفسير of the جهمية يعني جهمية تفسير أهل العلم gave a تفسير to it Okay, I have a student Who said, just reciting These verses is a تفسير قراءتها تفسيرها Okay, if that's the case Then reciting them Just reciting the word, just with saying Just the word itself is the تفسير And that is a تفسير of أهل السنة You don't have to affirm the meaning And then after that, Sufyan Ibn Uyayna He says لا كيف ولا مثل Yeah, no problem That's good, okay First of all, Sufyan Ibn Uyayna He means, رحمه الله تعالى Reciting it is its تفسير Yes Did we not say The ظاهر is what they're trying to negate Okay, let's go through it slowly These people claim The مؤولة and المفوضة Both parties agree on one thing Which is, the ظاهر What is apparent The meaning which is apparent Is not what's intended And you agree to that now So when you recite it, what comes to your mind The meaning which is apparent No, no, something that we have to make a very important distinction The مفوضة The people who say that Allah knows the meaning and I don't know the meaning They affirm the words No, I'm not saying what they're saying I'm going to come to the مفوضة I'm going to place a ruling on that, I haven't spoken about them yet I'm saying to you Both parties, before we come to what they both say When we read the Quran These characteristics Other than the seven they affirm These characteristics They say These characteristics, they say The ظاهر The apparent meaning is not what's intended Yes, agreed, agreed We all agree on that The ظاهر is not what is intended Because the ظاهر has in it تشبيه That's what they say What does ظاهر mean What comes to the mind straight away They say this is تشبيه We don't want this Sufyan ibn Uriyayna He said leave Don't read it as it is As what comes to the mind You're adding that into a statement, that's not fair But I just said to you They agree themselves, I'm not saying it myself The شاعر are saying Yes, these verses, when you read it straight away There's a meaning that pops into the head But they're negating that meaning Okay, I don't want to talk about the مؤولة Because we've done تأويل Both parties agree on this part Yeah, I'm with you But there's تفسير Because they agree on it based on different terms They agree on it based on different terms They do agree on it But then what comes out of that is different The way they go about dealing with the issue is different Both parties, the شاعر In both مسلك they talk They agree The ظاهر of the Quran which we recite today Has The ظاهر has a meaning The ظاهر has a meaning They're not negating that They're saying The ظاهر It is obligatory To not accept it We're not going to accept it So what do we do next? The مؤولة say something And the مفاوضة say something The مؤولة says, we're not going to take the ظاهر We're going to give another meaning to it That's the path he took The مفاوضة, they say The ظاهر that we're reading That came to my mind straight away It's تشبيه, I can't accept that So what do I do? I say الله أعلم That's not what's intended Show me in his statement where he said I'm going to come to it Sufyan ibn Uyayna Shahid you have to accept that both parties Are saying the ظاهر of the Quran has a meaning Both parties are saying the ظاهر of the Quran Has a meaning, yes they do But both parties One is saying we're not going to affirm a meaning The ظاهر is not what we're going to affirm Sufyan ibn Uyayna is Disagreeing with them by saying Reading the Quran Leave it the way, leave it at its ظاهر, what comes to them, leave it Where did he say ظاهر, that's the part we're misunderstanding here There's two There's two points that push you away Number one The first reason that pushes you to the corner is When he said لا كيف ولا مثل كيف You only say it to a person who affirmed the meaning It's a very important point The مفاوضة, the people who make tafweed They also say there is no كيف No I'm not saying They do say that right? So Sufyan hasn't negated them, he hasn't gone against them He has, because if he doesn't believe A meaning كيف is لعب If a person doesn't even If the person, the self don't talk The Quran is with wisdom But the way you're understanding it is not That's first one, I'm saying any My common sense person would say Why did Sufyan say ولا كيف There's no كيف and there's no how Brother you're not even letting me affirm the meaning How comes from Where does how come from But he's already said what you do with the meaning He said you just read it and that is the meaning But it doesn't need to say كيف Why does he need to say ignore it If Sufyan negated the meaning If he already negated the meaning He doesn't have to jump to the second one and say And don't do how How is a فرع of affirming the meaning They don't say there is no meaning That's not fair They negate the meaning Which is ظاهر That's what we're talking about Sufyan Ibn Uyayna Him saying ولا كيف ولا مثل Is unnecessary If he's negating the meaning, that's my point That's one Whether they affirm, they agree with that It's common, literally Point number two, who knows the self better Me or you or them They do of course They know themselves better I already told you what Imam Tirmidhi said Yeah but I'm trying to understand I agree with you He negates the أولى But where did he negate the مفاوضة So Tirmidhi Brought the name of this great Imam That you mentioned, Sufyan Ibn Uyayna And he brought the statement of who He brought the statement of Imam Abdullah Mubarak And he also brought the statement of Imam Malik So these are three great Imams, right You just mentioned one of them, let's bring the other two in Yeah let's bring them on What is it that they said Another statement Which means I'm going to go to that statement of his in great details Look what he said When he came to the statements of the He said He's talking about the جهمية He said The جهمية came and they interpreted These characteristics In these verses فَفَصَّرُوهَ عَلَى غَيْرِ مَا فَصَّرَ أَهْلُ الْعِلْمِ They gave a تفسير To it other than the تفسير of the I'm asking you a question Yeah Sufyan Ibn Uyayna Abdullah Mubarak Malik Ibn Anas What was it that they said A تفسير for these verses Other than the تفسير of who The جهمية So when the Salaf was saying يَعَنِي أَمِرُوهَا كَمَا جَاءتْ يَعَنِي بِلَا كَيْفٍ وَلَا مَعْنًا وَلَا تَفْسِيرٌ All of these are transmitted from the Salaf They're talking about the تفسير الجهمية There's two تفسير They're fighting with one that's already there at their time And they're trying to push it to the side Which is تفسير الجهمية Malik didn't like the تفسير الجهمية Abdullah Mubarak didn't like the تفسير الجهمية Sufyan Ibn Uyayna doesn't like the تفسير الجهمية That's why they're saying read it as it is Don't go into these meanings that the جهمية are bringing Saying يَدْ means قُدْرَ Where did you get that from? You do realize that the أهل التفويت The people who made تفويت They use the same statements that you're using It's just semantics, it's just how they understand it Because they say أَمِرُوهَا كَمَا جَاءَتْ Okay let's look at the word أَمِرُوهَا كَمَا جَاءَتْ First of all What does the word الإمرار mean? خليل من أحمد الفراهيد الشيخ سيبا وهي He says that the word الإمرار It's the It means الإثبات, it's to affirm Okay, that's what it means يعني معنى الإمرار Is الإثبات as خليل من أحمد الفراهيد He says in كتاب العين What does إثبات mean? It means affirm Is there another meaning for it? Just to pass by, is that a meaning or not? No, here it means Is there a meaning in the Arabic language just to pass by? I don't know it like that I don't know إمرار like that It's to affirm something لغة The poet even said يَأْمَنَنَّ قَوِيٌّ نَقْضَ مِرَّتِهِ إِنِّي أَرَى الدَّهْرَ ذَا نَقْضٍ وَإِمْرَارِ And it means الإثبات, it's to affirm something So you're saying The statement is affirm them Affirm these words Affirm the words or the meaning That's where the خلاف comes You know the salafis, these are not babies When you say affirm the word Everyone's gonna affirm the Quran Who's arguing about affirming the word? You just told me at the start That Jahmed bin Safwan said if I could remove this from the Quran But he didn't But he would like to But it shows So I don't think That still shows that there might be people like him Who come along later and the salafi thinking ahead No, we affirm the words But what I'm saying to you Is that this was not the problem Let's not make a rare person Doing something or confuse individuals You're just projecting your belief on the statement I'm not, I'm not, I'm saying to you The word معنى الإمرار It means الإثبات Yeah, إثبات of the معنى Or the word Nobody is ever saying كاء الرحمن على العرش Okay, but the Jahmed won't It doesn't matter There might be people who come later The Jahmed were distorting the meaning It was the meaning where the discussion was I just told you the statement of Imam Abu Isa Where he said They didn't say يد is not in the verse They're not distorting the word They're distorting the meaning They're saying يد here means قدرة That's what they're saying The معركة is the meaning here Yes, you're right, there were times they played with Words here or there like وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهَ مُوسَى تَكْلِيمًا Playing around, who spoke to who وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَى تَكْلِيمًا They did play around with it like that لكن القضية for them was what Also, Shahid The second response to أَمِرُّوهَ كَمَا جَاءَتْ It makes sense to any individual بِلَا كَيْفٍ بِلَا كَيْفٍ Why would you say to me بِلا كَيْفٍ Why would you say to me بِلا كَيْفٍ Why would they say ولا معنى يَوَلَى مَعْنَن يَا مَعْنَ الْجَهْمِيَّةَ That's what they mean That's the problem they had at that time The جهمية had given a meaning to these words Which were wrong And it's a statement he brought Which is where he says كُلُّ مَا وَصَفَ اللَّهُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ فِي كِتَابِهِ فَالتَّفْسِيرُهُ تِلَوَتُهُ أَمَا كِرَآتُهُ وَالسُّكُوتُ عَنْهُ To be silent about it They bring this Just say it in English so the viewers can kind of keep up He said everything Allah described to Himself His self Or His كتاب The تفسير for it is reciting it Just reciting it So he didn't say from the meaning That's very important He never said the تفسير is affirming the dhahir meaning He said just recite the word But I already told you The dhahir having a meaning both parties We all agree Ash'ari today will not argue with me That the يد from the dhahir without you coming Has it got a meaning He'll say yes it does But the statement you literally just said Is a bigger proof against you He just said what we do with these kind of verses Is we recite them and we stay silent I'm saying yes That's what the mufawwid does You just recite it You go further You've given a تفسير What's the mufawwid saying Is he reading it He negates the meaning He reads it Does he pass by the word or just skip it I'm the one who reads it He reads it I'm saying Imam Sufyan Ibn Uyaynah is saying The تفسير The meaning is by reading it Just by reading it They're not just reading it They're saying this is not the meaning I'll show you The mufawwid he reads the word يد And he says الله أعلم No he's not saying that I keep bringing you back to these two points The mufawwid is saying This word does not have this meaning That it seems to be having Step one Step two what's the meaning He's doing those two things He's saying here He hasn't negated that at all Repeat again The mufawwid is saying The ظاهر غير مراد The ظاهر is not intended here Okay So what's intended Is he saying that Or is he saying الله أعلم It might be the ظاهر but Allah knows best Who? The mufawwid He's saying that the ظاهر is not intended It's not intended They're saying because it necessitates تشبيه Okay so I want to give you an example okay The mufawwid is reading the Quran Comes across the word يد He reads it correct We agree that he reads it he doesn't just skip over it So far he's in line with Sufyan's statement Correct And then he says الله أعلم But this is the problem Remember The Quran was read by the sahabas Yeah He came to the Prophet The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم he said يضحك الله He said يضحك ربنا Does Allah laugh And then the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم Said yes he does And then he said we'll never give up on our lord Who laughs Shahid I'm asking you a question They came and they interpreted To be merciful Abrazeen didn't know They said that Abrazeen is shocked with something He said does Allah laugh He knows Allah is merciful He knows Allah is forgiving All of these interpretations that's from your pocket The Prophet could have sent this companion By the way it's hadith Abrazeen رضي الله عنه The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم He didn't say What did you understand from it الظاهر غير المراد الظاهر غير المراد But when men would come to the Prophet And they would hear the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم saying I swear by the lord in which my soul is in his hand And he didn't say يا قوم يا ايها القوم الظاهر غير المراد الظاهر is not intended The مؤولة and the مفوضة Have taken that step with each other To say that the ظاهر is not intended I'm saying to you From Sufyan ibn Uyayna's kalam The sahabahs By the way the sahabahs only came And said this word means this They had to explain it like that When these people started coming And they started to say The imams of the sunnah Had to start going a step further Every time these people came Or else from the time of Abu Bakr These issues would not be a discussion We would have read these verses And everybody knows what it means And that's how it would have been When they came And they said الظاهر غير المراد This is what it means And the other one came and said Allah knows what it means That's when the salaf rahimahumullah Stepped in and then they started to talk about These issues in great details So the time of Sufyan ibn Uyayna The suffering was from the jahmiya side The مفوضة were not there He was pushing these people away And how was he pushing them away? He was pushing them by telling them Stop giving these false interpretations That you're giving the verses Go over the verses the way the sahabas went over it With that being said He's not going to the statement of the مفوضة He's actually saying And when they say That clears to us That there's a meaning already affirmed They're just saying Which is what I mentioned from Ishaq ibn Rahuya Ishaq said you say Allah has a hand But not كيد مثل سمع You can't say that Okay Would you be more inclined to their belief If they brought you an ayah from the Quran Which categorically proves their belief So Ali Amran, ayah number 7 When he talks about the متشابخات And the محكمات What is that ayah? So this A summary of the ayah in the English language Allah Ta'ala He divides the Quran into two There's ayat which are محكمات And there are ayat which are متشابهات Ambiguous verses The محكمات are verses which are Clay cut And the متشابهات are verses which are very ambiguous Allah then says Those who have deviation in the heart They follow مَا تَشَابَهَا مِنْهُ بَتِغَاءَ الفِتْنَةِ They follow the verses which are Ambiguous, looking for fitna And looking for mischief وَبَتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُوا تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ And no one knows the interpretation of it And no one knows the ta'weel of it except Allah Ta'ala وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعُلْمِ And the people of knowledge يَقُولُونَ They say أَمَنَّا بِهِ كُلُّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا We believe all of this is from our Lord وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُّ الْأَنْبَابِ The argument they put forward Is when Allah says وَمَا يَعْلَمُوا تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ They're saying that this proves And they stop there They say it's a waqf there You have to stop there That proves that these ayat Which are متشابهات because we spent two hours Discussing what they mean and what they don't mean Etc They say that this proves that nobody Knows their تأويل Nobody knows their meaning, their interpretation Except Allah and it's a clear cut verse Why aren't you accepting that verse? So there's three مقدمات that they put here And then after that they reach the نتيجة They put three premises and a conclusion The first one is you mentioned It is obligatory for us to stop at وَمَا يَعْلَمُوا تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ And then وَالرَّاسِقُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ That first premise we don't accept it We believe there's two ways of reciting it وَمَا يَعْلَمُوا تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِقُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ You can look at it in the books of تفسير And the scholars of تجويد and علماء القراءة They speak about it Both ways are correct You can stand and you can carry on if you want to So that premise is rejected The second مقدمة is These آيات are from the متشابه الَّذِي لَا يَعْلَمُ مَعَنَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ The second premise is that these verses These characteristics and attributes of Allah are what? متشابه The response that we flip on them is What about the seven that you affirmed? How did you put an exception on that? Of course, they make that distinction These seven Why did you make them not from the متشابه? Because the عقل affirms them For example If you go back to the عقل And I go back to the عقل, I say what about حكمة? The third مقدمة that they use is that They said وَمَا يَعْلَمُوا تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ They actually explain تأويل here To be the اصطلاح المتأخرين تأويل meaning صرف اللفظ عن ظاهره Meaning? Taking the word from its apparent meaning To another meaning That's what they said I mean that's what we've been discussing for the last two hours That's how we've used it But تأويل in that meaning Is the اصطلاح المتأخرين Is the usage of the latecomers and those who came after The متقدمين never knew تأويل to be that What did they use تأويل for? تأويل meant تفسير for them And بيان What's your proof of that? Ibn Jarir's تفسير is called جامع بيان القرآن و تأويله And stuff like that Even if you look at the whole book of his Ibn Jarir Tabari He mentions the word تأويل here It's like me saying When Allah says in the Quran مَتَاعَ لَكُمْ وَلِلسَّيَّارَةِ سيارة here means cars And it's not permissible to take The اصطلاح which is متأخر As contemporary Usage of something And then you Impose it on the Quran And you force the Quran to take that meaning So those three مقدمات Are what we don't accept First of all وجوب الوقف على اسم الجلالة We don't accept that The second one claiming that this is من آيات الصفات The question I say to you is Why are your seven not part of the آيات متشابهات Why have you taken those seven out Whatever reason you've taken those seven out Just to remember I will make sure I'll take all of the others out Also by the way I believe the whole entire Quran There is no متشابه There is no متشابه in the Quran Again we're talking about word So you don't believe a single word in the Quran So what is Allah talking about here We know the wisdom for why Allah chose it To make the Arabs feel unable But no one asks about the meaning of letters We ask the meaning of words So what does Allah mean in this verse What does ABC mean Exactly We don't read it as ألم We read it as ألم The letters And the basic knowledge that you take in النحو Is when he speaks about كلمة Or a كلام He mentions وحرف جاء لمعنى Basic book of اجرمية mentions that The حروف are two types حروف المعاني and حروف المباني So no one asks about the meaning of حروف المباني No one ever says to you What's the meaning of So the Quran To ask that is incorrect But Allah affirms That there are ayaat in the Quran that are متشابه How can you sit here and say there is no متشابه in the Quran You're going against what Allah says directly I'm saying to you there is no word in the Quran Which is متشابه Then you said to me And I said to you a word That's considered letters So what does Allah mean in the Ayat number 7 When he says Okay the متشابه is Subjective, each person has متشابه There might be a verse in the Quran I read And I don't know what it means So I take that subjective verse to the verse which are محكم It might be متشابه to me But not necessarily somebody else So can the مفاوض say it might be متشابه to us But to Allah it's not That means you're making it on everybody, the people So you're saying within the creation There is someone At least always living on this planet It's known Also by the way So the Prophet said when he was alive He knew the meaning of every single word in the Quran You know everything Which one? The Prophet He was saying there was no متشابه for him Every word in the Quran, not only the Prophet In this Ummah it's known If you want to know You can know every word in the Quran So to him there was no متشابه There's not even just them Even some Muslims There's not a word in the Quran Which is متشابه to me It could be متشابه to me A particular verse because I don't know it But I can get out of that Ambiguity by just finding out and researching So the متشابه is نسب Not متشابه مطلق I'm negating متشابه مطلق An unrestricted type of متشابه But there is a type which is متشابه which is نسب One of the interesting things Relating to this discussion Is just like you accept the Quran, Sunnah And Ijma' as being proofs in the religion The other side They bring Ijma'at They bring consensus for their belief One of them for example Is from Imam Al-Haramain Al-Juwaini And he mentions that The Sahaba And he leaves it unrestricted here Therefore he means all of them When it comes to the Sifat of Allah They would leave the meaning to Allah i.e. they would make Tafweed What do you have to say about this? First of all Abu Ma'al Al-Juwaini is part of the debate He is on the side of the Party that we are debating against So you can't use the Kalam of the Khasm You can't use the speech of the opponent That's number one It's like me saying to you Muhammad Ibn Taymiyyah said Would they accept that? If Ibn Taymiyyah said Ijma' It's like Ibn Taymiyyah saying Ayah in the Quran Would they accept that? Of course they would Ijma' is a proof in the religion But if the Ijma' has been transmitted from Ibn Taymiyyah They won't accept it And if the Ayah in the Quran is transmitted from Juwaini You're not going to accept the Ayah? What's the difference? They're both proofs Ijma', a lot of people claim Ijma' You know We used to claim a lot of Ijma' And Abu Uthman al-Darimi refuted him In his Risalah Where he refuted Bishr al-Marisi And because Muhammad said Anyone who claims Ijma' is a liar Ahmed had to say that How do you know the people didn't differ on this issue? What I mean, Ahmed is not against the concept of Ijma' Of course he believes in Ijma' And he affirmed many issues, Ijma' for it But he was debunking Bishr al-Marisi Who just came and claimed Ijma' And anything I would have to say to Abu Ma'al al-Juwaini This is not accepted From you personally Because you're on the other side, that's number one And number two, we actually have statements of The Sahabas and the Tabi'een Affirming characteristics of Allah It would just prove him wrong The Ijma' he mentioned Can the Ijma' not be broken by one person? One Sahabi, imagine that Sahabi is a prominent well-known Sahabi Abdullah ibn Umar He said Allah created four things with his hand Abdullah ibn Umar is saying this And he mentioned The four things Allah created with his hand He said Allah created these Allah created With his hand And the remaining of the creation Allah said to them This is a real Powerful refutation of Abdullah ibn Umar Which is if you said the hand is Qua' That's for everybody Does that make sense? So you're saying for example The four things that Allah said that he created With his hand If you say power, then what about all the other creations of Allah? Why can't you? But isn't there an ayah that says Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth Everything is true But Allah didn't say everything, he just said the heavens and the earth Does that mean us, we weren't created by Haqq? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I see your point It's a good point, it's a very good point But that doesn't These four we're saying are uniquely given to it That ayah just affirms that Allah did Create these things with Haqq And there's other Nusus where we have the Prophet Hadith in the Prophet Where he said that Allah created the heavens with Haqq And the earth with Haqq More things You see there's a difference between affirming something For something And restricting something For something These four are restricted that Allah said I created them with my hand Adam, restriction Arash, restriction The Prophet So this you have to understand So my point here is Abdullah ibn Umar A noble companion Is saying Allah created these four things With his hand At that moment, Abdullah ibn Umar If tafweed was the meslek al sahih Taweed was the meslek al sahih It would not be right for him To leave it unrestricted like that He would say stop, wait What do you guys understand it? He would have said that But he left it at it's apparent meaning That's what we're saying Abu Aliya al Raiyah He died in 93 Hijri He's a tabi' right? He's a student of Ibn Abbas, he's a student of Ibn Umar Abu Aliya was mentioned Hafidh Dhahabi mentions in his Hadith Abu Aliya Ibn Abbas used to sit him on a high place And all Quraysh would sit on the floor And then He used to say That's what knowledge does It increases the honour of a person Abu Ali when he came to The ayah He said So where's the claim of Abu Ali This is Abu Ali Mujahid Ibn Jabr When he came to Those two meanings Bukhari chose it Bukhari chose it What about Ikrimah who was a Mawla of Ibn Abbas He died in 104 When he was Ikrimah he said He said He didn't say Qudra He didn't say Allah Sorry I'm going to push it to English A little bit, as much English as you can So Ikrimah When he came to the ayah He said It means two hands The next one is He died in 117 Hijri When he was asked About Is it one or two He said This statement people only think Imam Malik said this Imam Malik's teacher He said I was next to Rabi'a And a man asked him He said to him Same question Malik was asked How Did Allah Arise above his throne And then he said Is not Is not This one is the Hardest one It can't be understood This matter has come From Allah And upon the Prophet Is to convey To what To believe Believing in the words never been a debate With anybody The claim From the other side is that Imam Malik is saying that the word is not Unknown to us, the word appears in the Quran Do you get what I'm saying, that's their claim But there was never a contention on that issue I'm just saying that sounds so pathetic To be honest, no one ever argued That this word Allah said it or not The problem here that Imam Malik was asked Is How Did Allah go above his throne, the question was how And here he says The word is The word is not Unknown to us It's not unknown to us And it's known to us That's what he's saying Who preceded him in giving a meaning to it Mujahid Ibn Jabrin Do you know who Ibn Jabrin did He said I presented the Quran to Ibn Abbas Three times, from beginning to the ending I stopped him at every verse And that's why Sufyan Al Thawri said If the interpretation of Mujahid comes to you, then that's enough If the interpretation of Mujahid comes to you, then that's enough Yeah Are you with me? Yeah Abu Ali again Says the same Explains the word like that Malik Ibn Anas said the same thing When he was asked about the issue of He said, when the man asked him He said The word is not unknown to us And it's known to us Then he said to him He said, I see you to be a misguided person Leave the masjid Here I want you to really like To believe in it is what It's obligatory To believe in it is what Obligatory The wedding Who negated the wedding Here's the meaning You believe in the meaning Asking about it Is not the meaning It's asking about the key That's what the man was asking Asking about the how How is a far'un How is a Comes from what? Comes only after you've found the meaning Also Waqi' Ibn Jarrah He said He said Waqi' died in the 190s 197 197 He's a teacher of who? Imam Shafi'i He's the one who said Waqi' Ibn Jarrah He said We surrender to these ahadith as they have come We don't say like this We don't say like this And how is this? And then he said Like the hadith of Ibn Mas'ud Allah is going to place the Allah is going to place the And all the mountains Allah is going to place Also the same He says About the characteristics of Allah The same way He said he died in 195 Also Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn Hanbal He died in 241 Hijri He was asked about About the statement of a group of people Who say about Allah Speech that it doesn't have a sound And then he said Allah speaks with speech Allah speaks with speech Yes Allah spoke With a sound We narrate these ahadith as they have come The same thing has been narrated from Muhammad Ibn Ismail Al Bukhari In his Kitab Khalq Af Aali Al Ibad Muhammad Ibn Isa At-Tirmidhi I quote his statement All of them Ibn Abbas R.A When he came to the word As-Samad It's not from the seven that the Sha'irah affirm by the way He gave a meaning to it He said that the word As-Samad means Al-Sayed Abdullah Ibn Abbas So when he says We have to ask ourselves These are the words of the Prophet Abdullah Ibn Abbas Is he not a Sahabi? Abdullah Ibn Umar is not a Sahabi Even Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud He came to the word As-Samad He said Meaning? That As-Samad is the master That has reached the pinnacle Of mastery And it's not the word As-Sayed He's giving a meaning to it He's explaining it Abdullah Ibn Abbas The same thing Abdullah Ibn Abbas Ibn Abbas could have said No I don't know these These are characteristics We're not allowed This is Da'awa We looked at it We went back We found that All of them Can explain characteristics of Allah Okay I'm not going to bring the next Ijma' Because that's Fakhruddin Razi And you've already said And you make a very valid point I think throughout this whole podcast I can't remember you even mentioning Ibn Taymiyyah for example You're bringing scholars that both sides Agree with like Tirmidhi, Bukhari The Companions etc However we do have an Ijma' From Ibn Qudama Someone you would accept Where it says Leaving the meaning to Allah is the Aqeedah of our Salaf Without exception Again I told you leaving the meaning The meaning here that they're referring to is the meaning of the Jahmiyyah When someone says leaving the meaning unrestrictedly That's a gesture That's a tafweed That I'm leaving the meaning to Allah I don't know what the meaning is I told you the statement of the Salaf before Without Without When they say There's no meaning to it They mean The meaning of the Jahmiyyah Ibn Qudama Look at that book And see what's in there He's got a Aqeedah book And you can see it And I already bought it last week I brought the statement of Ibn Qudama When it comes to the Asha'ira It has nothing to do with the Asha'ira When they say there's no meaning They mean The meaning of the who? The Jahmiyyah That's one of the interpretations There's another interpretation which is They mean the meaning that the The Mushabbiha gave it Okay There's another problem that you're going to run into now Where you say that we affirm the apparent meaning Of Allah's characteristics And we don't Interpret it differently We just say this is what it means There's an ayah in the Quran which talks about Allah forgetting Those who forgot him on the day of judgment Does that mean Now we have to say that Allah is one who forgets Allah is forgetful, this indicates imperfection So the response to that is number one Allah Ta'ala he negated himself From forgetting He said Isn't that a contradiction now? First of all Allah negated From himself Your lord is not one who forgets That's one response So then how do we reconcile So how do we reconcile between it? It's easy The word In the Arabic language has two meanings The word Has two meanings The first one is called Which is A person leaves something deliberately Okay And the second one is Forgetfulness And the Mention that If you go to When he went to the Of Nasa He mentions it Ibn Faris mentions it Even Ibn Jarir When he came to the ayah in Surah Tawbah He says They left off Obey Allah Allah left them Allah left giving them the ability To follow the guidance The guidance itself and his mercy I mean he explains it In the ayah Then In the Arabic language It means originally it means To leave something Even if I said to you You said to me Did you bring the drink For example the water And I said to you I forgot, I forgot here means I left it It means I So there's two meanings It can have Because the ayah that you just Read right now It can't be It can't be Forgetfulness It can't be That this person left the command of Allah Out of forgetfulness Or they forgot it It can't mean that Allah wouldn't punish us You see my point The reason is because these people deliberately left it So in the Arabic language It takes both of those meanings Because if you say Allah negated it from himself Allah We have to do ta'weel here You say ta'weel Is the only way open Or tafweed What about the human beings Are you going to do the same for it as well No because human beings are imperfect by nature So we do forget I'm saying the same ayah Are you going to do tafweed for the As well when you say Because it's an ayah that affirms imperfection And for human beings We don't have no issue with that We don't have to make tafweed or ta'weel We accept it You came to the same verse Part of it you're going to leave it And you say And the next one you're going to do tafweed Yeah because one is for Allah and one is for us Just like the same When you come to the surah So you're choosing when you want to do tafweed No Allah is choosing because one is Pertaining to Allah and one is pertaining to We already proved The concept By the way Allah doesn't And it's not for him Because that's what he negated in the ayah When he's negating here Which is Does he negate it for insan Of course not But I'm saying to you on this verse by itself Why did you choose to negate it So Allah negates forgetfulness for himself there So we say okay that can't mean that But for the human beings So you affirm it for the humans Of course no doubt we've got no problem But then you're again in another trouble Because if you affirm it for the human here In this ayah you're saying Allah has punished him While he forgot Do you understand my point So I think there's a contradiction here The point I'm trying to say to you Is the best way out of all of this is that This is not called taweel This is called what Bringing the word back to its original meaning That's what it means It's what it means And I mentioned to you Imatul Lugha mentioned this Like Ibn al-Jadid al-Tabari Ibn al-Faris Ibn al-Athir All of them mentioned it You asked me a question earlier Why do if you affirm If you say that hand The word yad means power Instead of hand Then human beings still have power So you haven't actually taken away From tashbih you haven't taken away From anthropomorphism you've just moved From one word to another I think the response to that would be That power is not An imperfect characteristic It actually indicates perfection It's a good characteristic to have So that's why affirming power for Allah Is not a problem for us Even though human beings have power as well Whereas a hand indicates a part of a body And we can't say Allah has a body Do you agree with that The term body To negate it Or to affirm it, either one of them Need evidence I am not going to negate a characteristic I have no evidence for negating it And I'm not going to affirm a characteristic I have no evidence for We believe Affirmation and negation Both of them need evidence So When you said that yad Body, you're falling into what Tashbih You're comparing Allah To the creation I'm saying to you I believe Allah has a yad That befits his majesty I affirm it for him in a way that Befits his majesty Just like I believe that the clock has a hand That befits the clock I have a hand that befits me And Allah Jalla Jalaluhu The greatest of great He has a hand that befits his majesty I don't know I'm between two things I don't distort the meaning Nor do I give it a how So these Alfa that you're bringing Like body and this and that They are Alfa which are Mujmala They are very ambiguous terms They are terms that we don't entertain We say Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and his messenger Didn't use this term La nafyan wa la ithbatan And by the way, who said to you that The characteristics that we share with the creator Is the same as the creator His characteristics When we say Allah can hear, it doesn't mean to say Allah's hearing and our hearing is the same We're not saying that at all We're saying that these characteristics that we're affirming for Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala Are characteristics that Befit his majesty Of course his hearing was there way before our hearing His hearing is always gonna last His hearing was never given to him All of those are differences that we can just mention now His hearing is so Strong that he can hear everything We're restricted of how far and How we can hear His hearing is puss Same with his seeing, same with his hand Same with him being above Same with him descending And you don't compare Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala to the creation I just feel like you're falling Based on this shaky principle You're gonna lead into not negating a lot of things Which you should be negating Is Allah from the unseen? Yes he is from the unseen Unseen, majalul aqli has no place in it We spoke about that when we spoke about logic We haven't, this is not a majal It's not open for a aql to wave And swim inside it You haven't seen Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala I haven't seen him Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala We haven't spoken to someone who saw Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala And thirdly we don't have someone to compare Allah to So on those three grounds Nafian wa ithbatan, bring an evidence to me Khalas, if I wanna affirm it I have evidence If I'm negating I'm gonna have evidence for it The word body, I don't affirm it Nor do I negate it Because I believe I believe It's taken from the Quran and the Sunnah Okay Since we're talking about these kind of Logical arguments, you mentioned obviously At the start of this episode About the blame worthiness Of ilmul kalam and using philosophy Don't you think that the reason why you Adopt this approach and why you sat here For the last couple of hours explaining your approach Is because you don't fully understand Ilmul kalam Actually I've actually Studied imlul mantiq And I've studied what the asha'irah have said Their own works, their own statements I've looked deeply at it With that being said I still don't believe that Asma'u Allahi wa sifatihi Is affirmed by aql I don't believe that Wujubu ma'rifati asma'i Allahi wa sifatihi Has to be bismi'i laa bil aql It has to be based on text Not logic Allah tells us in the Quran We are not ones to punish them Unless we send a messenger to them And we don't punish them Until they get to know who Allah is Allah also says The job of the prophet is to convey this message Of laa ilaaha illallah And within laa ilaaha illallah we believe the three tawhids Asma'i wa sifatihi So The concept here that I want you to understand Is that it was the job of the prophet To explain people to them who Allah is That's his job I'm not going to take my knowledge of Allah From a Greek logian, Aristotle and Plato And them guys are going to tell me about Allah I haven't done His brain doesn't know that He's like me, he's a human being like me So We take it from the nasusul wahi You know what's really sad They say that we take it from the Greek logians And Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala And his messenger they say laa And Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala Exalted is Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala With what they describe him with Allah says peace be to the messengers So the rest of the people The way they explain Allah The way they speak about Allah And he said peace be to the way That the messengers Safety is in the way the messengers How they describe Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala So I'm saying to you That's what we want Allah The path that's safe That's upright and correct Is the path of the messengers and the prophets Okay There is one thing that they do It's a very common argument And that is the issue of al hadith Which is basically And obviously it's going to come back to the principle you just set out But it's basically the concept That Take Allah's speech for example They say Allah's speech is not connected to his will Allah's speech is eternal, he's always speaking Because if you say it's connected to his will Which is what you affirm Then Allah is not always speaking Therefore his speech is not eternal And you've just said a part of Allah is not eternal And that takes out the definition of Allah being eternal Subhanahu wa ta'ala First of all that's again A philosophical argument Again we have The Quran clearly tells us the speech of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala We have When Allah spoke to him Musa alayhi salam The characters Allah chose to speak to him subhanahu wa ta'ala You see Allah chose to speak to Musa alayhi salam The ayah clearly tells us Allah spoke to Musa alayhi salam Now the point here is that This It's a long discussion That needs a long path Maybe I think we should make another episode And just this one by itself To talk about it and to go into deep details These people originally As I said before They were trying to prove Allah's existence That's where the whole issue came to them So in order to prove Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala exists They have to prove Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala always was there He's qadeem And that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala Which we believe he obviously was Allah always existed we believe that But where we prove it from is the Quran and the sunnah And the Quran is a proof for us These people they rationally wanted to convince others They took a path which was very Are his attributes eternal though? Of course Allah ta'ala is eternal So but his speech then how can you say We say Allah's speech is connected to two things We believe this Some of the sifat are sifat datiyya And some are sifat fa'aliyya And some are sifat datiyyatun fa'aliyya Where did you get this categorization from? I thought you're not using it after No we're not we're not using that We're saying that when we looked at It's called sabr When we follow the Quran and the sunnah We define categorization The Quran categorizes the thing Just the same way we found the Arab speech Is kali ismun wa fi'alun wa harfun The same way we found the hadith of the prophet Sahihun hasanun da'ifun The same Everyone follows it even the sha'ira Follow this concept as well They categorize the tawhid into three as well But the problem is that tawhid al-uluhiyah Is not part of that categorization So when they scream at us And say why are you guys doing taqseem The real problem they have with us Is they don't believe in uluhiyah So they're saying Where did you get this taqseemat from? But the taqseem is mawjud And they all have it They mention the taqseemat of the tawhid In three as well it's funny But I won't go into that Maybe another time would be nice So Allah's characteristics Are three types There's characteristics which are connected to Allah And all of those And there's sifat which are sifat fi'aliyah They're connected to Allah's will He does it when he wants and he doesn't do it when he wants The characteristics are always there Allah has a high example I can write right now, sah? Yes you can but you're not Just because I'm not a writer You have the ability to write That's what it is The third type is called sifat datiyatun fi'aliyatun When I say I read this ilmul kalam We, we, we Salafis don't know these things The third type is called sifatun datiyatun fi'aliyah Meaning it's connected to Allah's that And it is also Connected to Allah's will So There is Hadithatul ahad They call it The characteristics as I mentioned to you is present in Allah Allah speaks Subhanahu wa ta'ala But then each person he speaks to when he spoke to Musa That is his hadith The original characteristics present in Allah So give an example of something that Allah does Fi'aliyah but it's not part of his da'at Fi'aliyah Like a nuzul Descending It's characteristic that happens when Allah descends in a way that befits His majesty So sifat Datiyatul fi'aliyah Is only sifatul kalam That goes into those two types It's connected When they affirm it they only affirm it from the angle They don't affirm it from sifatul fi'aliyah Hence why they believe it's sifatun Qa'imatun bithati Allah They call it sifatun Which is in Allah It doesn't come out of him Okay I'm going to move on to some closing questions And I'm going to give you an opportunity to Summarize what we've discussed so far Okay the first question I have Which is a very common claim Is that this issue of affirming the apparent meaning Was not known until Ibn Taymiyyah came along And like I said you actually haven't Mentioned his name throughout the podcast But he was the first one to come up with The aqidah of affirming the meaning It was not known before him What do you say about that? That's not true because I've mentioned some statements of the salaf Affirming characteristics for Allah And I've mentioned Abu Ali I've mentioned Mujahid al-Mujabarin I've mentioned Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Abbas I've mentioned all of them You see just because look Just because there's a word That two entities Two parties share it I don't want to use the word entity or party But there is Allah who has these characteristics And we have these characteristics The scholars they say Sharing the name and the attributes It doesn't mean we're the same It doesn't mean we're the same Like I mentioned before In the ayah he said We have the same name And the description is Allah's name, we have the name We share it Just the same way In Jannah Allah mentions Allah mentions that in Jannah there's going to be a river of milk Do you think the milk in Jannah Is the same as the milk here? The khamar that's in Jannah Is the same as this khamar It's only the name The sahabas they used to consider this not to be Exactly the same So We believe that These characteristics are present for Allah These names he has them Even if the name is shared by the humans It doesn't necessarily mean That they're the same Ok the next question again It goes back to the issue of logic and using logic And this is not necessarily restricted It's a lot of the brothers They tend to use these kind of terms Is it permissible for us To say things like Allah is the Prime mover or Allah is the First cause You see that They use these brothers which are Very ambiguous One of the blessings Of the salaf When you read their works Is that they restrict themselves to what the Quran And the sunnah mention A lot of these brothers they use Kalaam which they took from Asha'ira And because of that they adopted A very corrupt Tariqa when it comes to They want to affirm Allah's existence And they took the concept of Dalil al arad wa huduth al ajshan by the asha'ira Muhammad al ghazali and their likes And they used that to prove Allah's existence And by default they fell into what They fell into Ya'ni They have to negate the characteristics The way they kept it going They have to negate Allah's names and attributes So It's a problem And the reason for that is because they haven't read the books of the Salaf Books like that What was the mawqif of the salaf regarding these issues Shaykh al-Islam Taymiyyah Of course He has a very good discussion in these issues A person should read his works But some people may not understand his works He is very good His Is very very good Is also good Is very basic Ibn al-Qayyim's kitab Which I read before I came here Especially in the issues of ta'weel Is his kitab Amazing Amazing for a salafi to read If you read Ibn al-Qayyim's Even his nuniya if you could read it Wallahi you'd be gobsmacked How Ibn al-Qayyim debunks them You know the four questions I asked you at the beginning If Allah does he not know that Allah is better than all of us And you said yes Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Does he not know Allah more than us You said yes And then I said to you Does the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam have more eloquence than us And you said yes he is And Then I asked you Is the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam more concerned about the ummah Than we are And you said yes Those three questions Ibn al-Qayyim asked It was a question that he put to the people He put those questions He said in his poetry I've said to one Ash'ari, that brother of Allah guided him, subhanahu wa ta'ala I said to him, I'm going to ask you a question لماذا يجوز التأويل النصوص الصفات؟ Why is it allowed for you to do تأويل of the نصوص of Allah's characteristics and attributes ولا يجوز التأويل النصوص المعاد Why can't we do the تأويل of جنة النار and those characteristics and the Baltiniya believe that they believe those things are not they believe these all are mystical So why have you chosen to say only the characteristics of attributes of Allah are mutashabih? And even only some of them. Yeah, some of them are restricted. Why do you open and say every single thing in the Quran is mutashabih, even the Jannah and the Nahr? And it's funny because there's a guy out there who believes that.
That the Jannah and Nahr are all mythical. Also what it leads to is, The person starts thinking bad of Allah. Every time he's saying, Allah is talking about he has wisdom.
Allah is saying he's above his throne. And then all of that, he's speaking hypothetical. He's speaking metaphorical.
So think, the biggest ayah in the Quran, Imagine that someone told you that. Imagine I spoke 80% of what I'm saying to you. All of it is figurative speech.
And you just looked at me and said, What on earth is he talking about? Is this guy majnoon? That's what you say. And also, you're going to say that the Prophet ﷺ, When he was sent for a mission to clarify the Quran, He left us and he didn't clarify it to us. Because you're saying the names and attributes of Allah are not about his parents.
And also this book, We should start doubting it. It's shocking. Even one time, I don't want to confuse the people.
But I think I'll try to narrow it down. I said, why do you say Allah's characteristics? Why do you open the majaz for it? Because this is the majaz in the Quran. Majaz means metaphorical.
Metaphorical. It's figurative speech. I said, what's the evidence of metaphor in the Quran? He said, I said, wallahi, that's scary.
Because you're saying Allah wanted to praise himself in the Quran. But he used characteristics that have tashbih. Allah, instead of praising himself, He, subhanahu wa ta'ala, belittled himself.
By giving himself, Allah is praising himself. Why do you not prostrate to someone I created with my hands? You're saying, at that moment, Allah was trying to praise himself. But he, do you see my point? He said characteristics that shows weakness.
It's not befitting for Allah. We can't affirm it. Do you see my point? So, You know, you open the door to majaz in the Quran.
There's another ayah, Ask the village or ask the town. What is the response to these people who say that you say everything in the Quran should be taken as apparent, as a default. There are things that are clearly, It's funny because, In the smallest book, they have al-waraqat.
Written by Shaykh Abdul Ali al-Juwaini. He mentions that the asr is al-zahir. The haqiqah is the asr.
And the only time we go to the majaz is when there's a qareena. That's what we're saying. I'm saying there is majaz in the Quran, But the majaz needs a dalil.
If there's a dalil, that's it. But Allah's names and attributes, they don't have majaz. They are zahir.
They are upon the apparent. If you go to ta'weel, Because I'm telling you, Allah will not, You say to me that the Quran, The zahir is not what is intended. And we're reading the Quran, And never did the Prophet ever explain it.
If you're saying, About the Prophet, You're saying that the Prophet, Delayed explaining, Or he never even mentioned it. Clarify for the people. The sahabas were coming.
Bedouins were coming. They were not all ulama. Bedouin sahabas were coming.
And they were sitting in front of him. And he wasn't ever saying to them, And you're saying, The Quran is misguiding the people. And Allah said about the Quran, We did not say the Quran to misguide you.
Allah also said, Also why did Allah tell us to ponder on the Quran, If the meaning is not understood. Allah is telling us, Ponder on the Quran, And the overwhelming majority of verses in the Quran, Have the characteristics and attributes of Allah. It makes no sense, Where these people are getting all of this from.
I was going to give you a summary, But I feel like you just had it. I have to go through two more questions. So we just spent, With last episode, And this episode, Maybe a collection of four, Just over four hours, Talking about the beliefs of the asha'ala.
Many people would ask, Are these people still in existence today? Are there still asha'alis giving da'wah? Are there still asha'alis out and about? I just feel like they must have heard, Someone who might have heard you speak, For the last three or four hours, And just thought these beliefs are so crazy, And so out there, That they actually exist in the 21st century still. I believe a lot of the young brothers, Young innocent brothers, Don't believe this stuff, Which I mentioned about the asha'ali, Because they have no knowledge. Hence why I kept saying, Don't attribute yourself to this group.
This is the type of belief they have. Get away from it. Get away from this belief.
Don't ever, ever let anyone say to you, Asha'ali, Now that you learn that this is what they really believe, Don't attribute yourself to it. But without a shadow of a doubt, There are people who believed in it, Or who still believe in it. There are many people who believe, And fight for these issues.
Don't go far away. Mohammed Saeed Ramadan Bouti, He believed it. And he wrote in his works.
And there's another one right now, His name is Saeed Foda. And other people like that who are present, Like even Azhar, What they teach, And all of these people, They teach these stuff. It's taught.
It's not like it's hidden. They teach it. They print these works.
Very often it comes out. There are people who fight for it. Many of whom, Alhamdulillah, Who were refuted and debunked.
Like Hassan Al-Saqqaf, He was refuted by Sheikh Al-Albani, Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda, Mohammed Zahid Al-Kawthari, Mohammed Ramadan Bouti, All of these people, Sheikh Nasser, When he was alive, He took on a lot of them. Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda and Al-Albani, Used to go back and forth with each other. He had Asha'ali in him.
He lived in Saudi Arabia, By the way, Sheikh Ibn Abbas used to advise him, And tell him to leave off these things. He wouldn't listen. He got refuted.
Ample types. Also, Mohammed Zahid Al-Kawthari Al-Halik, Who was a teacher of Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda, And got affected by him. Abdul Humayah Al-Muallim, He took time out for him, And refuted him.
Who really, As a misguided individual, He insulted 300 righteous people. From Ali Ibn Malik, From Imam Malik, And Imam Al-Shafi'i. He slandered these Imams in Islam.
Just so he could stick to his belief. A very fanatic individual. Very fanatic.
Even, Al-Ghumari even refuted him at the end. Like, Where are you getting all this from? And now today, We have a group of people, Now there's a lot of movement, That's come out. Which is, They don't call themselves Asha'ali.
Alhamdulillah they don't. They're not going to say, I'm Asha'ala. But, They are sympathized of the Asha'ala.
Yeah. And they would justify the way of the Asha'ala. And they would, I mean, They call themselves Asha'ali.
They give themselves those names. Like, Abu Hatim Al-Awni. A movement that he has.
Abdillahi Al-Arfaj. I mean, People like that, They kind of water down. Alhamdulillah, Some, Shaykhs and some, Talabatul Ilm have refuted them.
There's a nice refutation of, Shaykh Abdur-Rahman Abdullah Haqqatul Kumani. Shaykh Abdur-Rahman Abdullah Haqqatul Kumani, On Hatim Al-Awni. I mean, Nice responses have been given regarding him.
I mean, Mufoom Al-Ibadah, What does it mean? Allah's names and attributes. And, The Prophet, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, He told us, That there's always going to be, La Tazalu Ta'ifatun Munamata Zahireen Ala Haqq. There's always going to be a group of people who are apparent.
And, Yanfawuna Anhu Tahriful Ghaleen, Wa Antiharil Mubtireen, Wa Ta'wilul Jahineen. There's always going to be a group of people, Defenders relating from the distortion, And the mockering, And the playing around, Yeah, Of people, With this deen. And, Obviously, You mentioned the Arab names, In the English speaking world, Without mentioning names, This belief also, Is prevalent, It's there, Yeah, It's there, When you sit with a lot of the learned ones, I mean, I've sat with a lot of, Quite a few of those learned ones, Yeah, They believe these things, When you tell them, Is this what you actually believe? They'll say yes.
And, Even the brothers given that, We're using the logical, Intellectual, Logical, Yeah, Arguments, This is a path to this, This is a path to this, This is where it ends, This is where it ends. Yeah, And, Anyone who really sits down, And reads the works of the, The late, The late ones, I mean, Realize, They're mad, I mean, Crazy stuff, They believe, Crazy stuff, They, They affirm, I mean, You have to understand, Fakhruddin al-Razi, Ibn al-Dhahabi mentioned, Rahim Allah, When I said about him, I mean, Even Ibn al-Hajar saying, You know, May Allah forgive him. Okay.
Okay. Final question I have for you. I want to take you back to the Hadith you mentioned right at the start of this podcast, Hadith al-Iftaraq, about the 73 sects and 72 of them going into the fire.
The Asha'ala, obviously, you believe are from those 72. Does that mean that you're making takfir of them? Does that mean that they are disbelievers because they're going into the fire? No, no, no. Not at all.
Not at all. You see, the 72 groups are من أمة محمد. من أمة محمد.
And the Prophet ﷺ said, ستفترق أمتي. ستفترق أمتي. He means أمة الإجابة.
So that automatically means they are Muslims. They're Muslims. They're not going to stay in hellfire forever.
So how do you understand that they go to hellfire for a period of time? Yeah, just like the major sins. Okay. You know the Hadith when you read that, you know, anyone who does this is going to go to hellfire from the major sins.
It's like the Kabair. Okay. And I've explained it.
That's not the only view. There's actually another view out there, Ahl al-Sunnah believe, with the explanation. But we have a course on it in the essentials where we speak about الفرق والإفتراق, where we spoke about groups and we gave an introduction, an overview, and we explained this Hadith in great details.
Great details. And the whole course is really about this. So there's that one interpretation is that they are كلها في النار إلا واحدة is they are like the Kabair.
Okay, yeah. So they end up in the hellfire but they're going to eventually leave the hellfire. Like the major sins.
Like the major sins, yeah. They go to hellfire for a period of time. But this is, another group of people came and they said how is that possible when innovation is greater than... So there's another discussion as well.
Okay, fine. Okay, I'm done with my questions. Do you want to give it a very quick summary or do you feel comfortable with what you've said so far? I hope Allah Ta'ala doesn't hold me account to the mistakes I've done and the shortcomings that have come from me.
But I do just want to say one thing to the Muslims is that يا أخي, this is your religion. يعني don't let a love you have for a particular Imam or a group of people that you were raised and you were with. And this is Deen, it's not a football team that you champion for one group and then you look at that.
Just remember this is your Deen and you're going to be brought يوم القيامة فرادا. You're going to be brought يوم القيامة by yourself. And you're going to be the one slave and you're going to be questioned by yourself and you're going to be interrogated by yourself.
So you just remember, look at these arguments, sift through it and you know, ask Allah Ta'ala to guide you that which is the best. And if the early people of this ideology of the Ash'ariyya felt like they regretted what they did, لقد طفت في تلك المعاهد كلها وسيرت طرفي بين تلك المعالم فلم أرى إلا وضع كفة حيرة على ذقن أو قارع سن نادم I mean this is what they're saying, I travelled the land, he's saying. لقد طفت في تلك المعاهد كلها I travelled all around these lands وسيرت طرفي بين تلك المعالم and I looked at all of these schools and all of these ideology and methodology I looked at all he's saying.
فلم أرى إلا وضع عن كفة حيرة I only saw a person who placed his hand under his chin out of confusion على ذقن أو قارع سن نادم and another person who regretted what he did in his life. 30 years you've been قيل وقال فخر الدين said at the end ولم نستفيد من بحث طول عمرنا سوى أن جمعنا قيل وقال All he compiled and at the end he said I'm going to affirm الرحمن الحلال أشهد سواها والله والله He said I'm going to affirm all of these things. So by the way these issues are not trivial issues it's why you were created.
Allah created you to know these issues. الله الذي خلق سبع سماوات ومن الأرض مثلهن يتنزل الأمر بينهن لتعلموا So you can know أن الله على كل شيء قدير That Allah has ability of everything وأن الله قد أحاط بكل شيء علمه الله قد جعل الكعبة البيت الحرامة قياما للناس وشهر الحرامة والهدية والقلائد ذلك لتعلموا أن الله يعلم ما في السماوات وما في الأرض وأن الله بكل شيء علم Also by just learning Allah's names and attributes and understanding it what's going to happen you're going to go to Jannah because of it. The hadith Bukhari and Muslim narrated من حديث أبي هريرة The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم He said إِنَّ لِلَّهِ تِسْعَةً وَتِسْعِينَ أَسْمَاءً مِئَةً إِلَّا وَاحِدًا مَنْ أَحْصَاهَا تَخَلْ جَنَّةً Allah has 99 names anyone who masters them studies them it's not just a wording also the meaning he will enter Jannah Also it's a means for you to Inshallah to be able to implement the hadith مَرَّاهَ مِنْكُمْ مُنْكَرًا فَلِيَوَيِّرُوا بِيَدِي فَإِلَّمْ يَسْتَطِعْ فَبِاللِّسَانِ فَإِلَّمْ يَسْتَطِعْ فَبِقَلْبِي وَذَلِكْ أَضْعَفُ الْإِمَانِ To be able to debunk the people who are speaking about Allah تبارك وتعالى's names and attributes in the wrong way you'll be able to implement the hadith by debunking them by refuting them by exposing them finally Allah تبارك وتعالى instructed us categorically clearly to know him by his names and attributes Allah says وَعَلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِعٌ عَلِيمٌ Allah also says وَعَلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي أَنفُسِكُمْ فَحَذَرُوا وَعَلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ حَرِيمٌ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَعَلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَالْمُ التَّقِينُ فَعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِّينٌ All of those verses Allah is instructing us what? He's saying وَعَلَمُوا And that's a فعل أمر right? And a فعل أمر shows what? وجوب It's obligatory So Allah تبارك وتعالى has the ability to guide We ask Allah تبارك وتعالى The last and final point I want to mention is that The reason why division came is this issue of تأويل A lot of people say أخي you're causing division by bringing these issues up تأويل was where the Ummah became divided ابن حقيم رحمه الله mentions in his نونية He says هذا وأصل بلية الإسلام من تأويل التحريف والبطلان وهو الذي فرق السبعين بل زادت ثلاث قول ذي البرهان وهو الذي قتل الخليفة جامع القرآن ذي النورين والإحسان وهو الذي قتل الخليفة بعده أعني عليا قاتل الأقران وهو الذي قتل حسين وأهله فغدوا عليه ممزق اللحمان 73 groups 72 groups only came about because they started to go to تأويل تأويل is what was used to kill عثمان رضي الله عنه They interpreted those verses onto hymns and they killed him The خوارج only came about because of تأويل of the Qur'an They applied it on علي and they killed him It was تأويل when حسين علي was killed and he was murdered I mean cold blooded وهو الذي قتل الحسين وأهله فغدوا عليه ممزق اللحمان So we have to understand تأويل is not something we want It's a path that we should close It's Wallahi speaking about Allah تبارك وتعالى with no knowledge إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُجَادِلُونَ فِي آيَاتِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرُ سُلْطَانٍ أَتَاهُمْ إِنْ فِي سُدُورِ مِنْ لَّا كِبْرُوا مَا هُمْ بِبَالِغِهِ فَاسْتَعِيدُ بِاللَّهِ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ So I implement that verse And I seek refuge in Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى From any mistakes or shortcomings that I might have come with سُبْحَانَكَ اللَّهُمَّ بِحَمْدِ أَشْهَدُ وَلَّا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ أَسْتَغْفِرُكَ وَأَتُوبُ إِلَيْهِ
