Note: The following transcript was generated using AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Bismillahi wassalatu wassalamu ala rasoolillahi sallallahu alayhi wasallam amma ba'da Salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Brothers and sisters, it gives me great pleasure to welcome you and to introduce you to a brand new show and a brand new podcast called The Hot Seat. To understand a little bit more about The Hot Seat, we first have to understand the context of the modern day world we find ourselves living in, in the year 2019. It is a world in which perhaps, perhaps there are more doubts, misconceptions and misinterpretations that are thrown around about the religion of Islam than in any other period of time in the history of mankind.
The internet is the number one source used by people globally to acquire information on any topic and it is riddled and full of false notions and erroneous ideologies about the deen of Allah as is the wajab. Our kids, ourselves are being exposed to this kind of information on a daily and if not daily then at the very least weekly basis and whether we know it or not, whether we choose to accept it or not, it is having an effect on ourselves, our hearts, our minds and ultimately our understanding of this beautiful religion. To further complicate the problem, many of us find ourselves living in western societies where the governments and the social norms and pressures are constantly trying to redefine what is good and what is bad, what is accepted and what is rejected, what Islam is and is allowed to be and what Islam is never allowed to be.
All of this, my brothers and sisters, ultimately leads to confusion, it leads to ignorance and if Allah permits it can lead to misguidance. The hot seat has therefore been designed, with the permission of Allah alone, to counter these kind of modern day, contemporary issues head on by using the knowledge and the guidance of the Muslims of the past, the early generations of Muslims, the best of generations. There is not a single Muslim on the face of the planet today that would doubt the fact that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala completed our religion for us over 1400 years ago and that that completed, holistic, perfect religion is just as applicable now in the year 2019 as it was back then.
We truly do have classical solutions for contemporary problems. However, this isn't your normal, average Islamic lecture series. First of all, it's not a lecture, it's a discussion between two parties, often opposing parties in an attempt to reach the truth bi'idhnillah.
And secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it's a unique, one-of-its-kind, interactive podcast where you, from the comfort of your own home, have the opportunity to vote for and to choose the topic we'll be discussing on the show. You also have the chance to ask your own questions on these contemporary issues and to grill the speaker if you feel like he hasn't been grilled enough on the show itself. I'll be releasing details of how you can do both of those things at the end of this episode.
But for now, without any further ado, let's get into this episode of The Hot Seat. As-salāmu ʿalaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh. Welcome to another episode of The Hot Seat podcast.
Once again, Ustadh Abdur Rahman Hassan, hafidhullah wa-ta'ala, has very kindly donated his very busy schedule to us to film another episode, a very special episode today, Ustadh. As-salāmu ʿalaykum first and foremost, how are you? Wa-alaykum as-salāmu wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh, alhamdulillah. So this isn't really going to be your average, normal Hot Seat episode where we have a kind of back-and-forth discussion.
It's going to be more of an interview style where we're going to be trying to derive some benefits from your life, and in particular your journey to seeking knowledge. Now this is something that a lot of people have been very interested in, and one of the reasons for that is because you've never ever spoken about this before on a public platform. And that's really where my first question begins, what is the reason why you haven't spoken about this before? When it comes to speaking about biographies, tarājim as the scholars call it, I've always loved to speak about the biography of people of knowledge, ahl al-'ilm, people who their knowledge has been testified, and who are known for khayr, known for the implementation of their knowledge, known for their righteousness, I've always loved to speak about that.
You know, we're living in a time where people love for people to know about their biographies, their lives, like they really matter, and that's not the case when it comes to me. I mean my mashayikh, my teachers, I've seen them, you know, being annoyed by being referred to as a Shaykh, let alone any other title like that. One day I was with my Shaykh, Shaykh Ahmed, and we were sitting somewhere, and there was a YouTube video that I put on for him, and he looked at it, and it was another person who was talking about his biography, and he gave me that look, like, what is this? And I'm not going to lie to you, that stuck with me for so long.
He is a man of great knowledge, wallahi, sitqan, he is. Shaykh Ahmed has explained Bukhari, he did Abi Dawood, he did Tirmidhi, he did Nasa'i, he has done all the aqeedah series that you can, Sulam al-Wusul, Kitab al-Tawheed, Kashf al-Shubuhaat, he has done Adab al-Mufrad, he's even done Al-Targhib wal-Tarheeb, the sahih version of Shaykh al-Bani, of al-Mundiri, rahimahullah. I'm talking about audios and things that if you bring together thousands, his muallafat are a lot.
He's done a khatm of Sunan al-Tirmidhi, where he talks about, after he finished reading Sunan al-Tirmidhi for his students, he sat down and he's done a khatm for it. Khatm basically means you speak about the book, the different publications, the narrators of the chain, and a bit about the terminologies of the author. You see he's a man of understanding, and when you read his khatm of Sunan al-Tirmidhi, you see he's done a khatm of Adab al-Mufrad, of Imam al-Bukhari, with all of that knowledge, he's saying, what is this? And then I asked him, I said, Shaykh, isn't it sometimes necessary for a person to talk about their life? I just wanted to see what his view would be, and he was, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
And so that's why I think it's not really valuable, not important for people to speak about their biographies and their lives, especially if you're a student of knowledge at your early stages, you're seeking knowledge, you're trying to learn the deen of Allah, you shouldn't think your life matters to other people, let alone yourself, Nahm. Yeah, I think, so I agree with much of what you say, to be honest with you, there is some benefits that I see, personally, and I think it's worth mentioning, because someone might see your speech just now and think, well, you're saying that thing, but you're actually going ahead and doing it anyway, and I think, even though I know you didn't want me to mention this, I think out of justice, it's worth me mentioning that we've had constant back and forth on this for the past two weeks. I think every time we've seen each other, we've spoken, you've tried to convince me not to do this.
And for lack of a better term, I'm almost forcing your hand into doing this. And the reason why I'm doing that, personally, is not just for me, entertainment, it's because of a couple of reasons. First of all, when we do hear the biographies, and not necessarily an in-depth biography, but just a general overview of a journey to seeking knowledge, there's no doubt that there's a motivational aspect that comes to the viewer and the listener.
But secondly, and perhaps more importantly, as we mentioned on the first episode of the Hot Seat podcast, that we have to be careful who we take our knowledge from. And it's not fair of us to assume that everybody knows who you are, who you've studied under. So it's important for me to say, okay, on one hand, you have to be careful who you take your knowledge from.
It's not really fair on my part to say, okay, I'm not going to tell you anything about Ustadh Abdur Rahman, who has been our main guest on the show. So from my perspective, that's really the reason why I wanted to do this. And I know your thoughts on it, and I know your thoughts very well.
And I know the approach that you're going to take as well when we go into this. You're really not going to be talking about yourself much. You're going to be talking about your teachers, like you've mentioned before.
Let me just say something you said, and I think it's, you know, the idea of you saying that people want to know who they take their knowledge from. Wallahi, I say this, and Allah is my shahid, and I mean it when I say this. I am not really, like, fussed and concerned about people, whether they take knowledge from me.
I'm happy if somebody says, I don't want to take knowledge from you. Because, and I don't think I should personally, just so they can take knowledge from me, I have to give them my life and my biography. Because I'm happy when somebody says, I'm not convinced with your knowledge and your understanding.
Wallahi, you're truly entitled, and no one has to listen to me. I am not the haqq, and the haqq is not connected to me. There are many, many, many, many hundreds of people out there who are more knowledgeable than I, who are more beneficial than I, who are more sincere and genuine than I. So, again, that's what's made me never want to talk about my life again.
That's fine. But from the perspective of a listener who's maybe listened to other speakers in the past, you might come across someone who really resonates with you. They've seen a Hot Seat podcast.
They actually like a lot of what you say. It makes sense to them. They like your style.
They like your teaching style. They actually want to learn from you, but they don't. Why? Because they're wary that I don't really know who he is.
I don't know what it is. So it's not about you wanting them to learn from you. It's actually them wanting to learn from you.
And that's one of the reasons why we're going to do this. We're not going to agree. Just ask me the questions, inshallah.
Inshallah. OK, so I want to start right at the beginning. There's many students who have this kind of mentality, defeatist mentality, that I'm born in the West.
I'm not born in an Arab country. I'm not born in a Muslim country. Seeking knowledge is just not for me.
Did that ever kind of cross your mind when you were younger? No. You see, again, I really want to not take credit because I never grew up wanting to seek knowledge and become a talib ul ilm and memorize the Quran and become something. I went to nursery.
I went to reception. I went to primary school, just like any other kid in the UK. I was raised in North London.
My primary school was called Haringey Primary School. Haringey Primary School is located in Tampak Lane. So you actually went to a secular school originally? A secular school, yeah.
So you're actually just a normal kid going to a secular school? Yeah, yeah, normal school. We actually lived right in front of the school. So my parents used to, in the house, from the window, they would look over to the school.
The school was, you were in nursery and then you were in primary, nursery, reception, and then you go to primary. Primary was broken into two. It was an infant and then junior.
So one, two, and three was the infant, and there was a fence between the four, five, and six were the junior. So I remember when I was in year three and my brother was in year four, my older brother, he would look at me at the fence and laugh at me. And so then I think I reached year four, and then we moved from that school, Haringey Primary School, North London, and we moved to another area in North London, Haringey Primary School.
So I did year four, year five, and year six there. The thing that we had, like in even that though, like any ordinary kid, we used to go to school, we had non-Muslim teachers. My parents were different at home.
So at that moment that we used to go to school and we spent so much hours in school, my father understood that the impact that school can have to us, have on us, the impact that school can have on us. So what he did was in the morning before we went to school, my father would sit with us. I especially remember it when we moved to the second primary school, Highgate Primary School, which is in Archway, between Archway and Finchley.
That primary school, I remember very explicitly, my father would sit with us in the morning, and he would talk to us and he would speak to us about, you know, especially concepts of Trinity and the Sabbah of Maryam, not being the son of God or not being God, and the crucifixion of Isa. And I never reached this ayah at that time. It was, The first time I heard that verse was actually from my father.
He would use that verse a lot. And he would use it in the, the ayah means, anyone who turns away from my remembrance, the Qur'an. That person would have a hard life in this world.
And so he would read that verse a lot. He would say to us, if you guys turn away from Allah's religion and you don't do what Allah told you to do, and you don't stay away from what Allah told you to stay away from, you're going to live a very hard life. And so I remember one day I got sick in school.
And so I came home and I said to my dad, Dad, did I disobey Allah? Because basically I thought I was living a hard life now because I'm sick. So my dad looked at me and said, No, but if you do, you would live a hard life. So these kind of concepts as a young child was what dad was, you know, putting into our minds, teaching us.
And so this was before we would go to school. So what kind of ages are we talking about this time? Like roughly? It doesn't have to be exact. Year four, how old are you? Year four, I would assume you are, I don't know, we're talking about six, seven years old.
So we're actually, so your father actually started that early. Oh, very early. Yeah.
See, my dad's history, I mean, his background, let me start from my dad's background. My father, I'm not good with dates, but my father was a student who studied in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. My father is from the people who took knowledge from Sheikh Abdulaziz Ibn Abbas.
My father met Sheikh Mohammed Nasruddin Al-Albani, you know, that class. My dad met them. We're talking about the 70s, the late 70s, the early 80s.
My father was in the Kingdom. He was studying there. He was learning and he, you know, took strong Aqeedah, you know, we never grew up with, you know, Aqeedah, which was corrupt, you know.
And, but my father as a child himself, he was born in a place called Mataban. That was where my father was born. Which country is that in? In Somalia.
Okay. And my father's Quran teacher, and there's a reason why I'm mentioning, my father's Quran teacher, the madrasa that my father used to go to was owned by a Sheikh called Tahir Awais, a well-known man, but his son is even more well-known. His son is, and it was my father's actual Quran teacher.
His name is called Ahmed Tahir Awais. Okay. Ahmed Tahir Awais was my father's baby Quran teacher and close brother.
My father studied the Quran, learnt the Quran from that madrasa. Okay. They grew up.
My father went to Saudi Arabia after finishing the Quran at a young age. And Ahmed Tahir Awais is a PhD holder from the Jamia Islamia Madinatul Munawwara. And Ahmed Tahir Awais was a teacher for the children of Abdul Mohsen Abad, Sheikh Rabee' Ibn Hadi Al-Madkhari.
Ahmed Tahir Awais was a teacher for his children. And Ahmed Tahir Awais, when he came to the UK in 1996, he lived with us. He stayed with us.
And so what he did for us, Ahmed Tahir Awais, was he bought a Quran teacher for us. My teacher, Ma'alin Galat, he bought a teacher for us and he taught us the Quran. So 1996, I was born 1988.
So you're about eight years old. Yeah. But before Ma'alin Galat came, the Quran teacher, we had another teacher that used to come and teach us basic stuff.
But before that, my dad used to teach us. My dad used to teach us. And so that was the kind of upbringing that I had.
People who were knowledgeable and lived, Sheikh Ahmed Tahir, especially living at our house, he had a very good, Wallahi, very amazing impact on our life. You know, Sheikh Ahmed Tahir Awais is, you know, one of the people who were pushing Da'wah Salafiyya in the UK in the 90s. So that was my father.
He used to make sure that every day before we go to school, he would make us, you know, hear some reminder. And after school, when we came, my father would also give us a reminder. He was at home because his work was at home.
My dad used to type at home. He had a money transfer in his house. So he used to use those old type, what's it called, those old typewriters.
And he used to also write, he had a little notebook where he used to write all the money and every people used to come to the house all the time. And that's how my dad used to make a living. At that time, you have to imagine, in the 90s, there weren't much Somalis.
I remember one or two Somalis in the whole area that, so there wasn't much people like us at that time. But at that time, my father was really, really dedicated. He was driven to make sure that we learned the Quran and we learned the deen and we learned our religion.
So that kind of parenting, how important do you consider that kind of parenting at such an early age? I mean, what about the argument that it doesn't matter what you do at home, the school is just going to take your child away from you anyways, in terms of like intellectually, it's just going to infiltrate your child's mind. It doesn't really matter what the parents do at home. No, that's not true.
That's really not true. You know what my dad did? And I think this is one of the most important things, I think, helps a child's upbringing. And that is, before you think about bringing any good to the child, you have to think of preventing him from the bad things.
So he got rid of television. He got rid of gadgets, games, computers. I mean, there wasn't computers.
I mean, there might have been computers, but we would definitely have not seen computers at that time. Mobile phones did not exist at that time. I remember, do you remember that time when T-Mobile was called 1-2-1? Yeah, I remember that, yeah.
So that was what people had, you know, using. And there was a deal, T-Mobile at that time, 1-2-1, had a deal called 7-7. So 7 in the morning, no, 7 in the evening to 7 in the morning, it was like you had a free line to talk to whoever you wanted to.
And it was Ericsson was separate from Sony. Then they emerged and they became Sony Ericsson. We didn't have all of that.
I think PlayStation was not even used at that time. It was a game called Sega Mega Drive. Yeah.
Do you remember it? Yeah, the Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic the Hedgehog. That's the kind of games that were played in school.
People were more into all of that. The reason I'm telling all of this is because all of that was out there and it really didn't affect us. People used to love, you know, these bands, these music bands, like, what's those boy bands? Like Backstreet Boys or something.
Backstreet Boys and those kind of bands. Those were the people. For us, we didn't have television.
So when we went to school, it never used to affect us personally. Well, I never affected me. I never felt like I want to listen to music or I want to know because it's like in the morning when I woke up, I had a reminder.
The speech of Allah Azawajal. When I went to school, what they said, my dad beat you to it. I'll tell you a story.
My younger brother was put to a class where he had to study and he had to learn and he had to go through, I think, was it Ari or History? I think it was one of the two. My brother turned it down. He said, I'm not going to study Ari.
He rejected my younger brother, Abdul Hakim. He said, I don't want to go for Ari and I'm not going to study it. Okay.
And he told teachers I can't come in because they want to talk about, if it was history, then if I'm not wrong, I might be wrong. But I think it was to do with, you know, the Truders that you study, Henry VIII and whatnot. And of course, you know, he beheaded this one and you know, the church was in, you study about the church and Christianity comes in there as well.
My younger brother refused. He said, I'm never going to study it. Imagine this.
At that time, how things have changed, SubhanAllah. My father asked my brother what happened. My brother told him.
My father said, okay, okay, okay, no problem. This is what you want. It won't happen.
It reached a point, Wallahi, by Allah, the education, the guy, head of education in Haringey, the whole borough, had to come down to our house, came to our house in our living room to tell us, don't worry. To tell you don't worry, not to tell him that he has to come. Not at all.
In the UK. Imagine missing either was Ari or, I don't think it was Ari, I think it was history. And it was like, yeah, they said nothing to him.
They said nothing. That would never happen nowadays. Nothing happened.
So things have changed, SubhanAllah, a lot has changed. So my father, you know, his dawah helped a lot. So like you mentioned, things have changed now.
I want to bring you back to the modern world. Maybe some advice you can impart on others. We do now have technology.
We have gadgets. We have PlayStation. We have TVs.
We have internet. We have all of these kinds of things. What kind of advice would you give the parents today? They've got four year old, five year old, six year old kids.
They want to mold them into students of knowledge, righteous Muslims. How can they do this, considering that there's so much fitna in the world? Well, my policy with all of that is that you should stop your children from all of that. Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Games, playing. I never got it when I was a child.
And look, I've not lost out. You don't regret it? No, not at all. Alhamdulillah, I'm actually thankful Allah, SubhanAllah, guided my parents to not bringing games to our house and television.
I truly benefited from it. And until today, Alhamdulillah, it's one of the things that helped me with not having to watch TV and movies and, you know, watching this and that. I don't, I'm not, it doesn't bother me.
You were never into it in the first place. Many people, they might get engaged in this kind of stuff. And then when they want to turn to the religion, they find it really hard to give up these shackles.
And obviously, if you'd never had it in the first place, then it's no issue. Interesting. Okay.
I want to talk a little bit more about your study routine now. So when you were a child, we have this debate about a child, should he be focused more on memorization, more on understanding? What kind of mix do you think, what kind of mix did you have? First of all, was it just memorize, memorize, memorize? Or was it a bit of understanding? Like, how did it work? As a child, we focus more on memorization because we couldn't understand everything. Child doesn't understand everything.
So when you're a child, the parents really focus on hafidh. And that's what happened. We memorized the Quran.
We had memorized, you know, little books, you know, these books. You don't study in any way, shape or form, or you don't go through explanation to the child. He's not going to understand.
How are you going to explain? That's the first chapter of Tahara. He won't fathom all of that. He won't be able to digest all of that information.
So what he just needs to know is memorize everything, just capture everything. Keep it in your mind. There's going to be a time I'm going to explain everything to you, and it's going to make sense.
So the first stage of the child's life is that he memorizes. And again, if the child has things that are distracting him, then it's going to affect his memorization. What age do you flip it? Or is it impossible to say? What age do you start focusing more on understanding? Or does it depend on child for child? I mean, as soon as the child starts reaching teens, stuff like that, you start explaining things to him.
One of the things that really, really touched me as a child is that my father used to, he had, you know, I saw in my own eyes the Kitab Al-Adhkar by Imam Al-Nawwi, that my father picked my name from. Oh, really? Yeah. The book he looked at in order, you know, the most beloved names to Allah Azza wa Jalla is, you know, Abdullah and Abdul Rahman.
You know, like you can imagine when you see that book, and this is where it was picked from. It's amazing. My dad had a copy of Bulughul Maram in his house.
I think I still have that Kitab. The Bulughul Maram, my father has a child, the pages are orange, you know, those old orange pages. That's the version he has from the Bulughul Maram that he studied from, and he took from his Mashaikh.
So, in that, as a young child, seeing that stuff and seeing your parent like that, it truly does, it does affect you. So, aside from the teaching that he obviously imparted on yourself and your siblings, give me an idea of his actions, was it in line with what he was teaching? I mean, like, you know, sometimes you have parents who will say one thing, but do another, like, how important is it to make sure that the parent is actually acting upon what they're teaching the children? I just want to, I don't want to take, like, you have to understand, I didn't part, I didn't go on a journey to seek knowledge at that point, because I didn't know it. So, it was all my parents, they were doing that.
They were making me memorize, they were making me do this. I didn't know anything, so I'll do what they tell me to do, right? But one of the things that really helped me with my parents is, they were, they are, Wallahi, they're very good people, very good people. My father was a very good man, a man who just, he still is, you know, a man who just doesn't waste his life in unnecessary stuff.
A man who, you could say, busies himself with what is necessary, what's needed. You know, he's either in a masjid, he's either in his workplace and he's working, a man who's got his lihya, his clothing is above his ankles. I've never seen, my dad's always above his ankles.
You see, if my father, you know, I've never seen my father shaven, he's always had his beard. You see my point? We're talking about this early 90s, you see? Riba, this, house, my dad, none of that. And this is all while staying in the UK? All whilst he lives in the UK.
You see, when he takes television out of the house, he's going to be affected as well, because he can't watch news or can't watch this or can't watch that. He doesn't mind. Yeah.
So, it wasn't, don't do this, don't use your phone and the parents using the phone themselves. Or you can't have television, but they've got television in their bedroom. If you don't do it, to be honest, the child is not going to do it all.
What kind of effect did that have on you when you see your dad with a short thobe, for example? You want to then wear a short thobe? No, my dad used to wear trousers. Because he, you know, when he came to the UK, a lot of people have the perception that if you wear this, they're going to do something to you. So he had that, but it was above his ankles.
Yeah, I mean, first of all, what's this about, man? What's this all about? Why do you have to do all of this? See, as a child, you're like a white page, a white paper. It's whatever is written on it. Whatever anyone writes on it.
That's what's going to be stuck on that paper. So the child is taking everything. All of that, he's taking it in.
So now, I saw my mom wear hijab in every circumstances. You know, in the UK, in that time, a lot of Somalis that were coming into the country, they were assimilating with the society. Some might call it integration.
No, they were assimilating with the community, society. And so they were celebrating birthdays. I could see my mom go into arguments with them.
Why are you celebrating? You know, again, just to show you, wallahi subhanallah, how things have changed. Da'amu alladhina utul kitaba. Burger King.
My mom today, if I say, Burger King in the UK, she'll slap me. She'll slap me. That's haram.
They're strong on their, you know. My father was tough on that. So growing up, seeing all of that in the UK, for me, I'm saying all of this, it doesn't mean that I felt like I was abused.
I now look at it retrospective. Wallahi, when I look back at it, all I can do is just love it and appreciate him. And it does make me call him sometimes and just tell him, you know, how much I appreciate what he's done for me and how much he's helped me.
It's because of that I can sit down sometimes for hours without having to communicate with anyone or anything. I just read. Because I don't feel like I have to socialize or I have to use gadgets or I have to use a computer.
I don't have to, no. I can be without it. I've heard many stories of them offline as well and they sound like really amazing people.
Jazakumullahu khairan. I want to talk now a bit about your journey to seeking knowledge. So at what age did you start traveling to seek knowledge, roughly? I'm not good with dates.
I might get it wrong or right, give or take. So I think it was about when I was 11, 12, 13, 14. Give it that range, age range.
I think it was 13 when I was 12. I went for my first Umrah. For Umrah, I went to the house of Allah Azza wa Jalla, Kaaba in Mecca.
And when I went there, my father took me. And we stayed in a hotel close to the, we stayed in a hotel right in front of the Kaaba. For the first time I saw the Kaaba, I walked inside it.
There were Durs that were going on. There were lessons, there were, I could see the Sheikh sitting there doing Durs and teaching and explaining things for people. And people were, hundreds of them were sitting under him.
At that time, the Zamzam, now it doesn't exist. But at that time you could go down and you could see the Zamzam where it gushes from. You can go down to the Kaaba.
There's a down floor you can go to where, you know the Dawaf places, Maqam Ibrahim. There's a place you could go down. You could actually go down.
And you could walk and they'll show you how the Zamzam water was gushing out. We saw that and my dad told us about the story and what this is about. And you know the ayat regarding this and wow.
And then what my dad did was he planned a man to show us from the Hajj program, how Hajj is actually done. So we went to Muzdalifah, we went to Mina. We saw all of that.
It was a real big trip for me. And then we went to Medina. And then we saw the Prophet's Masjid.
The grave of the Prophet. We went to Uhud. We saw all of this.
My father explained everything to us. And you know what my dad would say, Oh the Jamia days they used to bring a coach for us and we used to go here but now things have changed. And you know it was memory lane for him.
For me what happened was when I went through that trip and I remember my heart and my aspiration just became you know what, this is maybe what I want to do. This is maybe what I want to achieve. So I got onto my dad and said, Dad you know what, I want to become a scholar.
I want to be a scholar. And he looked at me and he said to me, Really? I said, yeah wallahi dad I really want to become, I want to learn the deen. I'm hungry for the deen.
And at that time me and my younger brother, we loved it. We really loved the deen. We would always talk about it.
And so I remember that particular umrah, first umrah we ever did, me and him had a discussion. And it wasn't much that I used to get the answers right. But this time I got it right.
We had a debate about who was better, Nabilullah Muhammad or Nabilullah Ibrahim. He took the opinion that Ibrahim was better. I said Nabilullah Muhammad haqq.
And he goes, because we don't have much deleed. And so I said to him, Nabilullah Muhammad is better because he's our prophet. And he was like, but he's the father of all prophets.
We were throwing our arguments. You could see that spark was there. Even Sheikh Ahmed Tahir, we used to go to his lessons that he used to do in Leighton when we were young.
The durs that he used to give. The love of the deen was, from a young age, wallahi. Because your father had instilled it.
After the permission of Allah, of course your father had instilled it in you. And my uncle Ahmed Tahir always, he really instilled the love of the, I remember one of his classes. I was very, very little.
I'm talking about, I was seven, six. I still remember he was doing tafsir Surah Al-Haqqa. And he cried, the Sheikh cried.
He really cried, and he cried, and he cried. I remember that was a tafsir. You know when I say Leighton, I mean Masjid Al-Turhid in Leighton.
Right, okay. I don't know Leighton. I know where Leighton is, but I don't know the Masjid.
Yeah, he had a class there. And he went through tafsir Surah Al-Haqqa. And to be honest, he cried.
Surah Al-Haqqa is one of the hardest surahs when it comes to Qiyamah, and the Day of Judgment. So he cried. And he made the people in the, you know, from the crowds cry.
That really touched me. Really touched me. And I was like, this is subhanAllah, you know, these people, the deen.
So this is what we grew up. And we also had my mother, may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala elevate her status. You know what she did? She bought this big cassette.
You know the big cassette players? Where you have two sides. Where you play, and you can place the record side where it records the tape, cassette from one side to the other side. Right, right, yeah.
She used to buy the original 114 surahs, the whole entire Quran, the 30 ajza of the Quran of Muhammad Khalil Al-Husari when I was in Sudan. Especially Al-Husari, because the Quran teacher told her to get it. So she'd get Muhammad Khalil Al-Husari's cassettes.
And she would take that and she would put it into the cassette. She doesn't want us to mess up with the original one. So she would always make a copy version for us.
You see, and she would take the original one and she would put it on her shelf in her bedroom. And so whenever it got messed up, she would come down again for us and she would record it for us. And that's what we would use.
And we would listen to that. She would put that into your ears or she would say to you. The Quran teacher, what he did, what he used to do was the Quran teacher, what he used to do was he used to test us on the Quran.
When we finished a portion of the ajza of the Quran he would bring gifts and he would call Ahmad Tahir Awais to our house. You have to remember Ahmad Tahir Awais again was the most knowledgeable man at that time in the United Kingdom. He doesn't live there in the UK now.
He's a PhD scholar from the University of Medina. Knowledgeable man. He is now in London.
Everyone wants to meet him. He took his time out for my father and his children. Little kids.
And he would cross his feet and he would listen to us. And sometimes, subhanAllah, I remember one particular day I'll never forget. We were so bad.
Our memorization was extremely bad. And we embarrassed the teacher because he wanted to show his teacher that he did a good job. And sheikh Ahmad Tahir was a very busy man.
At night he would pray qiyam ul-layl and at day he would be teaching. He was a true servant. And so he slept on the chair as he was listening to us.
He just slept. Because we were terrible at what we were doing. We were messing it all up.
Because he was a hafidh. So he would pick a verse for you, pick a place for you and he would tell you to read. That was an embarrassing moment.
And that, subhanAllah, every time he would give us a gift. One of the gifts that he gave us was cassettes. You know those small Walkman cassettes.
Do you remember those Walkman cassettes? You put your tape in there and you listen to it. That's what... I remember I won it. I got one as well.
Anyways, after that Umrah trip I left and I went to the... I asked my dad. I wanted to seek knowledge. And my dad sent me to Somalia.
Somalia. So you went to Somalia. I mean obviously I know you said that you're not great with dates.
But give me an idea of the other countries that you went to when you were seeking knowledge. Can I just mention some things about Somalia that I benefited from? I went to Somalia without my mother, my father. At a very young age.
I was very young. I was about 12, 13. Around that time.
Okay. I went there. I stayed with my dad's other wife.
A very good woman. An honourable woman. She really took care of me.
May Allah honour her and grant her Jannah. A very good mother. May Allah honour her.
My father, when he took me there Peace be upon you. It's okay. Take your time.
He gave me tissue. It's okay. Take your time.
So what happened was I came from the UK and I went to Somalia. I left my mom behind. And if I'm not wrong my father was there before me.
I think he went there. Yeah, he was before me. Okay.
And I went with my older sister. Me and her were together. And I went to Somalia.
This is my first time going to my country. Never seen Somalia in my life. I've heard about it.
So happy. I landed. The plane landed and there was no The country didn't have airport.
So I was shocked. You just land in the middle of just get off the aeroplane. Yeah, there's no airport.
So everyone's just standing right under the plane. So we come out. My dad's standing there.
He's dressed different. He's wearing the cultural Somali clothing. Cousins picking us up.
Because of lack of safety you had to get police people with guns and whatnot. I went home. I met my stepmother for the first time.
Truly an amazing woman. She used to give me good advices. She used to She used to advise me greatly like, man, don't your dad brought here for a reason.
So what happened was when I came it was in the middle of the year. So what my dad did was he got me a teacher to teach us Arabic because remember I came from the UK. I don't know Arabic.
So my dad there was a teacher May Allah bless him. He came number one in Islam in the secondary school in the country first. He came first and he was meant to get a scholarship to Yemen to study and he was so energetic he was one of the most enthusiastic people when it came to education and learning.
And what happened, subhanAllah I don't know, some complication happened somebody else was given his position. So he was heartbroken. So anyways Allah intended that he becomes my teacher.
So when I came I'm new to the country I don't know anything I don't know my language Somali is not to the level of the people of the country I get enrolled into that class and in that class there was a Canadian girl who now she left Islam and another girl from Sweden I don't know where she is but I heard she is now into medicine and doctor May Allah protect her and take care of her and guide the other one and two brothers from Kenya but I was the youngest I was very very little so the teacher would only hit me no one else he would beat me up and I remember that first class we started at Jurumia that was my first lesson I took it was I'm like what is this what on earth is and so I tried to bring my head to this get around, what does this mean what is he talking about we had a class of Fiqh with him where he taught us Safinatul Najah Fiqh al-Shafi'i I had a Aqeedah book which was the Kitab al-Hafidh al-Hakimi As'ila wal-Ajribah question and answers he would write the question and answer for us basically what he wanted to do was he was teaching us Tarbih Islam and he was also teaching us academic science he was all around Allahumma Barik the idea was that we had to catch up with the secondary school kids but remember the secondary school kids their subject is in Arabic not in English so in one year I have to learn Arabic Balagha, three types of Balagha Ilm al-Bayan, Ilm al-Badeer, Ilm al-Ma'ani I have to learn Nahu I have to learn Sarf I have to also learn Tafsir Qasar al-Sawr and I had to do that as well and Tawheed and Hadith Hadith was a hundred Hadiths, you have to memorize them from top and they would ask you the Ghara'ib al-Alfab the strange words in the Hadith and the Ma'ani al-Ijmaliyah very hard complicated curriculum to be very honest with you it was not suitable for me I just came from the UK, I'm an English speaker I do not know anything about anything about this so what happened was I came the first day to the class I was wearing big shoes I was wearing socks I told my dad if he can get me Nike but he got me high so I came in and I remember I was in the classroom and I was studying that was the first path to seeking knowledge and then another Qur'an teacher came to my house his name is Mohamed Abdul Wahab was from one of the best people really he went to Damascus for a Qur'an competition and he came first and because in Somalia from the things that are corrupted acts and our oppression and our wrongdoings in our country is that we belittle tribes so they pushed his tribe down and he could have got to that chance to go there and benefit from it and go to Damascus but he won't get it because the guy who's running the flight is not his tribe the big tribes are going to get it he didn't get it when he was a half of one of the unique things he had was his tajweed was very strong extremely strong I remember one day he led seven juz in the Qur'an for Isha I swear just before Fajr and you know what is amazing was he was a Hafidh Hafidh Hafidh like Mutqin his Qur'an something else, very merciful to me he was a strict teacher before that he was my stepmother's Qur'an teacher she said he was someone you would never want to talk to the way he was strict to me I thought he was strict to me but she said this is nothing so I grew up in that house my stepmother took good care of me she used to do a lot of things for me my dad left straight away when he saw that I got into everything he left so I was without my father and my mother and one of the good things my mother did may Allah honour her and grant her Jannatul Firdous this is when parents work together the children become good my mother accepted to let me go seek knowledge my father said if you let this kid stay here and he wants to deal like this there will come a time that he could possibly not get what he wanted so just get him let him go imagine a mother letting her child go to another country to a step wife imagine this is hard not many people can do that my mother was willing to do that and if she never did that I probably wouldn't have been in the place I'm in before I went to Somalia we moved to Birmingham we actually moved from London because my first my dad he moved I remember I was telling a story about my brother having to say that he doesn't want to study history that brought a thought to my father my father got scared now he thought these guys are probably going to inject my son and kill him put something in his head say he's crazy so my dad got really scared so what he did was he went to a school he registered my brother in a school in Birmingham it's called Al Hijra Islamic school those people of Birmingham who are hearing this are going to be so he went to Al Hijra, my brother, my younger brother I didn't go I went to another secondary school, state school called Golden Hillock but I didn't go that first year I remained in London when one year I came after my mum I stayed in London with my brother and my father my older brother and me and my father we went to a school called Fortisme in North London one year secondary school and then I went to Birmingham and I studied there another another year or two I don't remember maybe 13 or 14 when I was then I left but at that time Birmingham was getting cramped with so many Somali kids from Holland were coming and the reason I mention this is because if my mother never let us go she never let me go to Somalia all of the boys I remember that were in my school either they're in prison or dead Allahu Akbar, really you can have any tarbiyah you want one of the kids who died, Abdi Ghani may Allah take him to Jannah his mother only had him he was the only child that his mother had and I heard his mother lost it when she found out her son died can you imagine she was raising him all she had in her life and she lost her son and I heard she lost it so looking back at all of that and what happened the kids my age Alhamdulillah, the tarbiyah at home was good but you're in a world where you're not the only one who's trying to work on the child other people are trying to do their thing to your children they're trying to brainwash him so I went to Somalia so you know one thing I really want to mention and I really hope you don't mind me mentioning this you're speaking about how the parents coming together, making sure they're on the same page when did your mum actually find out that you were actually moving to Birmingham because you told me this before and I think there's a benefit in this yeah my mother my father did his research he looked up, back in those days there was prospectus now remember there was this there was a Muslim directory ok now I'm not aware of that those who are watching are going to know it's called Muslim directory where basically you can find out every Islamic school in the country you can find any Islamic restaurants now you can google it all up but back in those days it used to come out it was like a catalogue, it was like the yellow pages the Muslim yellow pages, it was called the Muslim directory where you could find out everything you were looking for, restaurants, housing you know, schools my dad looked it up and he saw Birmingham and there was one auntie who my father was you know, tribe wise we were close he said, Hassan bring the children over don't worry so my father after getting everything ready and the idea came to him very soon as well, it wasn't something he was planning out for months but the thing that really shocked me was he came home and he just told my mum and he said to my mum basically I want you guys to go to London Birmingham tomorrow or something like that and you know what really touched me a lot when I think about it today I ponder over it one thing my mum was one person she is a righteous wife obedient to her husband till today she consults him in things that she wants to do she'll take his permission sometimes right now she'll call him and say Hassan I want to leave the house I want to leave the house I want to go so he just said to her look tomorrow we're going to go she just got everything ready the clothing keep it in mind keep it in mind some of the children have to stay two of them are going to stay these are going to go with you these are going to stay ok what I'm trying to say is if my mum never did all of that if she never listened trust me I would not be where I am today these decisions that they were making was carving my life directed me in the right way so they went and we stayed first time in my life I never lived with my mother it was the first time we used to get sad every day we used to call my brother and my brother would call us up and he would tell us things like these things over here this is how much they cost my younger brother and me and my older brother would be extremely jealous and he would mention new things that he learnt and me and my older brother used to go to school together and it was very dark and dull especially mum leaving the house it was a difficult time it was extremely difficult so let's go back to Somalia now you're in Somalia you're starting the early stages of your Islamic education it's funny I moved to Birmingham when I moved to Birmingham I went to an Islamic school first I went to Deobandi primary school secondary school Indian Deobandi secondary school it was called Al-Hira Islamic school I wish I could see those teachers it would be nice to meet them now yeah I used to be there I studied there for a period of time I remember they used to force Hanafi Fiqh on us so my life it was Islam all around me everywhere I went I remember that was the time me and my brother we used to have to find out what Madhab we believed in so we would go to dad and say what's this Hanafi and Fiqh Maliki and Shafi'i who are these people who is Imam Maliki and how are we Shafi'i who is Shafi'i so my dad would explain it to us this is what Imam Shafi'i was but why are we not just following the Prophet it doesn't make sense why do we have to follow this person at that time we just wanted to ask questions I thought we had to follow the Prophet this doesn't make sense I just want to say something in my life I made dua when I was very young two duas the first dua was I used to go to his class when I was a baby I went to a couple of his classes to be honest I went to a lot of his classes I made a dua that one day I can see that Ahmad Tahir Awais he comes to one of my lessons and he listens to it and the second one was Sheikh Abdel Nasser who is now in Egypt he was the Imam of Finsbury Park he was the leader of Talawih in Finsbury Park I used to pray behind him those two people I made dua that Allah shows me with my two eyes they come and they listen to me Abdel Nasser I said he prays behind me because he was the Imam of the Masjid Ahmad Tahir Awais comes to my halaqa and listens to my ders those two I saw in my life I saw Ahmad Tahir Awais in my class with his humility he is a very humble man truly humble man and you led Sheikh Abdel Nasser Abdel Nasser I did a khutbah for him Khutbah al Jumaa and I led him in the salah that was for me personally as a young child growing up that was one of my goals to see that happen so you are in Somalia now and you are going through your Islamic education roughly how many years were you there for? can you remember? 4 or 5 years maybe 4 or 5 years in Somalia and then you moved on to another country so I went to secondary school I finished my secondary school there so at the time you were doing secondary education as well as Islamic education simultaneously yes secondary school but the only thing is we had like history we had it in Arabic Islamic history but we had maths, science we had biology, chemistry we had physics we had geography in Arabic we weren't doing it in geography we were doing it in Arabic Islamic education which was Fiqh, Hadith all of that we were doing it Arabic and all of that we were doing it at that time I was going to the school I was a student of Sheikh Noor Ali Jama a very prominent Sheikh right now everybody now got to know him but he was my teacher then he was in a masjid called Masjid Omar Ibn Khattab in X-Control Tabakain I stayed those couple of years with him I studied with Tafseer Al-Quran Al-Kareem the whole Quran Tafseer he did for us he taught us Talatat Al-Usul, Kashf Al-Shubahat, Kitab Al-Tawheed he did Wasitiyah for us which the Sheikh did I did from Aqeedah from Talatat Al-Usul, Kashf Al-Shubahat Kitab Al-Tawheed, Al-Wasitiyah Al-Hamawiyah up to Wasitiyah and Ajrumia I did with him Sheikh Noor I truly benefited from him and his students became my second teacher after I moved from the house that I was in my stepmother that's one of the things that I misbehaved I wasn't good to my stepmother, I wasn't very nice and the reason is because she had to follow a hard protocol a very strong protocol and at that time I became a teenager you can take on everybody so she was like this boy is misbehaving I can't imagine that a noble woman a very noble woman and then I moved away from her I left her with all the good that she did for me I went to my mum's brother and I stayed with her and he was a student of knowledge a very good student of knowledge so he took me to these classes and that message used to be packed I'm telling you when Tafsir starts you have to come early to catch up the class you would sit right at the back and I ordered my first Tafsir in Munkathir in 2004 I still have that Tafsir in Munkathir 15-16 years old I ordered my Tafsir in 2005 I'm ordering my Tafsir in Munkathir Tafsir in Munkathir came and it has at the bottom Mohammad Nasreddin Al Bani so I'm asking everybody who is this Al Bani is he Albanian and the sheikh is telling me I love the sheikh so much but I could never talk to him so one day I found out that the uncle that I'm with the uncle I'm with his younger brother is a doctor he's a surgeon he actually did surgery for the sheikh's hand he did actual surgery to the sheikh something happened to him I think he had a car crash both of them are my mum's brothers but the younger one he did surgery for him so I told my uncle why can't we invite him into the house why don't we invite him because one day so one day I came from school and he said to me I've got a surprise for you and then I said to him what's the surprise and he said to me Sheikh Noor is coming to us today make sure you clean your room properly Sheikh is going to go all over the rooms I didn't even ask why anyways I cleaned my room I cleaned everything I sorted out my bed I sorted out everything the sheikh came to the house food was served he started to drink and eat so I said sheikh eat and then you drink and then I said sheikh didn't Allah not say eat and drink talk of the sheikh so I'm going to his tafseer classes didn't Allah not say eat and drink and then he said to me and then he said to me in the Arabic language it doesn't show sequence it doesn't show sequence I've actually heard you mention this in your classes he said it doesn't show sequence and order like eat and drink it doesn't mean eat and drink he said it doesn't show sequence and then I went quiet for a little bit but I today have another answer if I was to meet him again I would have said well I didn't say it to him then because I was poor but if I was to meet him today I would have said to him when the Prophet was asked when the Prophet was asked shall we start with shall we start with the companions asked and what did the Prophet say start with what Allah started with maybe I would have said that if I met him but it touched me I always loved the righteous people I always loved the Ulama and the people of knowledge seeing him eat and you know what he did when he finished eating that's one of the things that really resonated in my heart people of knowledge you learn a lot from them as soon as we finished eating the plate he said everybody let's eat from where we dropped the food on the floor like when whatever fell on the ground let's all eat it from there and literally remember he started eating from each place all of that which fell down he started eating each and every one of them I met Shaykh Noor Ali Jama many years after because I was very young he hugged me and he said you are tall because I'm taller than him now slightly so he hugged me and he said you're very tall and I said Shaykh I'm just growing in age I'm not growing in knowledge I saw him in Arafah in Hajj I saw him in Arafah in Hajj and all through Arafah the day of Arafah he was raising his hands like that when all of the people were sleeping and they were waking up and people were taking Qaylullah here and there I slept I literally meaning slept I went out and I woke up and I still saw him making Dua still raising his hands begging Allah in Arafah really righteous people what you learn from them behind closed doors was far greater than what you learn from their Halaqat and their Durs I really could listen to these stories all day so we're in Somalia and you've got obviously a lot of beneficial people around you that you're learning they're kind of molding you as a young student of knowledge starting on your journey what happened next? as soon as I finished my school there my father was very smart to understand that if I came back from the if I came back to the UK this could probably cause an issue to me because I'm still young I'm not old so what he did was he planned a trip with the hunger of my mother my mother was really pushing for it and we went to Egypt so what I did was I came to the UK for a summer holiday by the way keep in mind all that time I was in Somalia I never came to the UK you never even visited? I told my dad I didn't want to come to the UK every year he would ask me I said no no dad I'm happy here I'm really happy here that year my older sister was getting married who was with me so I came to the UK and when I came to the UK I stayed there for a while and to be very honest with you it just didn't seem the same anymore it just didn't seem the same I was happy to go back to Somalia so I said mum you know to be very honest I didn't know anyone anymore even my mum she changed she's been away for a long long time 4 years haven't seen anyone even though my mum visited one time she came for 2-3 weeks but remember my mum's been away from the country for like 20 plus years so when she came that time she didn't have time for me her mother was alive at that time she had all of her sisters to go to she was there for a short period of time she had to go to too many places my mother so I didn't even get a chance to talk to her she's come back to the country the country's begging for her she's been away from her family for 20 plus years I just want to extract a benefit that's really powerful what you said because you were raised in the UK that was all you ever knew when you were very very young and you went away for a few years you came back and suddenly you're seeing the UK in a completely different light and the reason why I want to extract that benefit is because I can completely agree with you I was born and raised in the UK for 20 plus years and I've only been in the UAE for 3 years but even now when I go back to the UK I realise and I see it in a completely different light and you don't actually realise until you leave the UK when you're actually raised and you stay in the UK or anywhere in the West I assume is the case you actually become almost desensitised to it and it's almost like you have to remove yourself to actually realise and see what the West is for what it is that's true I felt when I came back I didn't know anyone or anything everybody changed you know what I even learnt the older the parents get they become softer the strictness that my parents had when we were younger it was becoming soft for me it was I want to go back so my mum told me we're going to Egypt really I said yes she said yeah we're going to Egypt but what you have to do is because I had a return ticket to Somalia basically pack up all your stuff from Somalia whatever you left behind and then make your way from Somalia to Egypt and so yeah that's what I did so you're still in your teens at this age so you went to Egypt and you continued do you go full time into Islamic education or are you still balancing between secular so when I came from Somalia I learnt grammar I was very good in grammar my Arabic knowledge was very good theoretically but not practical because the country in Somalia you don't speak in Arabic you study it a lot but you don't speak it so I came and when I came and I landed in Egypt I couldn't speak properly so me and my brother the Hakim never came to Somalia all of this trip I'm doing he's been in the UK the whole time but what's amazing my younger brother was even though he was in the UK all that time he was still seeking knowledge which shows it can be done working hard, very hard it was like subhanallah even though I left him he was competing he was just not giving up honestly he was working very hard he was working very very hard so I went to Egypt and when I went to Egypt I went to an Arabic institute where I can learn how to speak I needed to brush up my speaking theory wasn't enough you need to practically learn how to speak so me and my brother we went to the marqas and I went a level higher because I just came from the country he was from the UK and it was a level or two lower than me I don't remember exactly so then I started speaking I started speaking Arabic to the teachers and classes to be very honest with you I was not in any way shape or form ever revising for these classes I never had to revise I just sit, I just leave, come back there was a young boy who used to be in my class Somalian kid, very strong kid he died now, his name was Mustafa he was in my class May Allah bless that brother Wallahi he had something coming from him it was truly amazing, he had a lot of he was younger than me plus that he was in the same class as me because he came from Somaliland at that time as well, he came from Hargeisa he studied there and I came from Somalia same roughly and after he went to Dimash by the way to seek knowledge but he died, Rahim Allah May Allah have mercy on him and have mercy on his mother Wallahi truly an honourable woman very honourable, hardworking woman May Allah bless her as well so yeah we used to go to that class and then from there I met UK brothers during the first time my English has gone very very bad so I meet these brothers I talk to them, we converse we get to know each other my brother Abdul Hakim, he picked up on a lesson that was taking place in Shubra in Masjid Tawheed by a Sheikh by the name Mustafa Al Adawi Abdul Hakim picked up that and we went, we started to go me and Abdul Hakim I remember we went to that class and Sheikh Mustafa Al Adawi he asked a question he asked a question I had two classes he had a Tafseer class and a Sahih Al Bukhari class and the first question I literally remember that day he asked was does anyone know the name of Umm Salama does anyone know the name of Umm Salama, the Prophet's wife literally I looked around and said wow including myself, I didn't know it I was like wow and I remember he said something, he said look this is the Prophet's wife no one knows her name and that really was that resonated with you I still remember that I even met Sheikh Mustafa Al Adawi did you tell him the answer did you tell him the answer I just told him Sheikh you know that statement I swam in I'tikaf in Ramadan the last 10 days and I said Sheikh you know that day what you said it really helped me sometimes Sheikh you might say something you can stick with somebody on the other side of the world it benefits them so at this stage in your studies are you still is it formal institutionalised education in a school or are you like sitting how is it working it was institutionalised because I just graduated from secondary school right so secondary school was an Islamic school in Egypt in Somalia sorry I'm talking about Egypt I graduated from the Islam where I did the Arabic programme at this point so I finished at that time it was still called Al Fajr but it was the best at that time the Arabic programme so it was Al Fajr I finished it yeah that was my only formal studying at that moment that I did at that particular moment ok and of course the Huzoor of the Mashayikh but personally at this moment at this particular moment my parents were more concerned with the idea of the concept and the knowledge and that's how I always saw my father and my mother so unpackage that a bit what do you mean by that they were more into the idea of what do you know my father always asked me what have you memorised like when we go to the Khutbatul Jumaa he would always ask me what did the Khatib say what did you understand from the Khutbatul Jumaa explain it to me in details that's what he would focus on it was always about what you understood and what you knew not what you qualifications you had one of my Shuyukh that I studied with and become very close with and truly helped me is a Shaykh by the name of Shaykh Ahmad Mahmood and he recently was here Shaykh Ahmad Mahmood was recently here he is a man I benefited utmost benefited and I truly consider him to be very very knowledgeable scholar truly his knowledge is very vast his understanding of the Deen is very very strong may Allah honour him in this world and hereafter very close with him very close relationship and he never took a formal studies no formal studies rather I saw times when Shaykh Ahmad Tahir Awais who is PhD holder in Jamia Islam PhD I actually saw him say to Shaykh Ahmad Mahmood what do you think the answer to the question is in a Mu'tamar actually look at him and say what do you think I remember one day my father invited Ahmad Tahir Awais when my father invited him over Shaykh Ahmad Tahir said to my dad you have to invite Shaykh Ahmad Mahmood Shaykh Ahmad Tahir is very close to Shaykh Ahmad and Shaykh Ahmad Mahmood came he came to the house when he came let me start Shaykh Ahmad Tahir said something to my father he said to him Ahmad Mahmood is someone like me I remember that he said he is like me and formal if you look at formally Ahmad Tahir Awais much higher in terms of qualifications yeah so we always I appreciate in my life the idea of qualifications came after that ijaza even after that the concept of do you have a certificate for this just came after in my mind I always focused on what do I know do I understand this do I grasp this Shaykh Nur Ali Jama I consider him to be very knowledgeable no Islamic qualifications he actually studied in an old classical way where you go to halaqa and you finish the shaykh's programme and you go to another halaqa that's how they used to be so let's go into this a little bit how much value should we place on Islamic qualifications is it the case you put no value whatsoever or is there some where do we find a balance I don't undermine it I don't say it's not needed but it doesn't really matter if you have qualifications you don't have the understanding if you have the understanding you have no qualifications it's all about the understanding it's really that knowledge that you have if you get the qualifications it's the cherry on the cake and it's that cherry on the cake it's not the asal to be very honest with you I went to Saudi Arabia and I stayed in the house of Shaykh Ahmad Tahir Awais' younger brother Musa Tahir Awais he taught me ilm al faraid and he taught me nukhbat al fikr Musa Tahir, I stayed with him in Mecca and while I was with him in Mecca we used to go to the dars of Shaykh by the name of Shaykh Yahya Uthman Shaykh Yahya Uthman is known as he's an Indian Shaykh originally Wallahi, you learn tawadu from him, humility and humbleness sarahatan you know what he does? I took from him fatah al majid and tafsir al kathir any portion of sahih muslim that he did he used to read sahih muslim with a sharh of nawwi you know what he does? he's still alive, may Allah give him a life full of da'a and obedience Shaykh Yahya Uthman would sit there and he would read the kitab fatah al majid he literally read the whole book with the sharh of Adhaman Hassan Adhaman Hassan Ali Shaykh he would just give little ta'liqat here and there little explanations here or there he wouldn't lift his head up and look he wouldn't explain anything he would just stick to the book right now if you go to his durs I don't know now I don't know the last couple of years last 5 years I don't know or last 10 years I don't know but before that he had only the African brothers that would go there people wouldn't value his durs he's been there for years I heard and he's got ijazat very big ijazat Shaykh Mughbil praised him the point I'm coming to is Shaykh Ahmad, Shaykh Musa Tahir he would say when we walk in there, me and Shaykh Musa would go together to the durs and we would sit with Shaykh Yahya Al Mudarris and I would see Shaykh Musa who's a graduate from Medina University I would see him sitting with Shaykh Yahya Al Mudarris and learning fatah al majid and Sharh Usai Muslim by Imam Nawiyan and I would say Shaykh you know like I studied this book before you really have to take it but the truth is you learn more than just a book you learn more than just a book yeah since we're on this topic of qualifications and the difference between qualifications and not having qualifications and I know you're going to really hate me and kill me for saying this but at the same time you're working towards your PhD now so there is obviously some benefit that you personally derive from a formal academic environment, what is the benefit there? definitely I wouldn't say that there's no benefit, one of the benefits that you take from doing university programs, PhDs masters is the dissertation you write, the buhurth that you have to do, these researches that definitely you learn from it's how to research, what books to rely on, what kind of methodology you should take when you're writing your baht it's not just merely just throw this naqal here and just throw this naqal here, you have to organize even the evidence from strongest to you know weakness your baht has to be done in a ameek way, the book that you're going to be using it has to be consistent from the same tabaa all these are things that you know would be picked up from and while I was in Saudi Arabia what I would do is I used to try to go to these where they do niqashat alnia where they do niqashat of the even when I was in Egypt even recently when I went to Egypt they stick on the wall that there's going to be a thesis research of fulan Ibn Ali, you don't know who it is but you look at whatever researches are happening that are going to take place you go and you listen and you see how they basically interrogate the person and how the legends talk to him, so I found that to be very beneficial from these PhDs and from these academic studies Islamic academic studies but as for knowledge as for gaining Islamic knowledge from it personally I didn't think I found that from it and I also didn't find the tarbiyah that you get from a sheikh if you sat with him and just watch him do things I also think the jamaat they don't give that to you as a student they actually lose all of that even if you did have it in the beginning and you go there sometimes it can take that away from you you can that is taken from the halaqat to be very honest you get that from the halaqat now the jamiah that I am going to that's the same thing you go to the halaqat, you go to the jamiah if you check out the jamiah you are going to be disgusted really disgusted to your core of you know what kind of teaching ethics that they have and what kind of the teacher that is meant to teach that subject, the way he is dressed the way he talks, the way he is picking up it's just so much things that you know, I went to Azhar for before you go to accept it into the jamiah I said you have to go to the buhurth and there is a class that you have to participate imagine this, the kids were whistling in the class they are whistling in the class they are calling the teacher's name in the class Azhar University, imagine that mocking the teacher the fiqh teacher that was teaching in the jamiah he smokes he finishes his smoke he throws it and he comes in and he takes the pen it's like a shift for him it's a shift he looks at the time and he leaves so that's why I realised this is for the ulama the people of knowledge that you need to take that from I think this has been extremely beneficial so far we are running out of time for this but I think we are definitely going to have a part 2 to continue on with this for now that's all we have time for subhanakallah wa bihamdika ashhadu an la ilaha illa anta astaghfirullah wa atubu ilayk I hope you enjoyed and benefited from that discussion please do share it with your friends and family members if you feel like they might benefit too and don't forget to hit that subscribe button below so you are notified of any new episodes check out www.thehotseepodcast.com that's thehotseepodcast.com on there you'll find a little bit more information about the podcast and you'll also have the chance to vote for which topic you'd like to see discussed on the show. 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