Note: The following transcript was generated using AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alameen, wassalatu wassalamu ala rasoolillahi sallallahu alayhi wasallam Ustad Abdur Rahman Hassan, assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Welcome back to the HotSea podcast. And as a reminder for anybody who may have come across our channel in the last six months or so, this is a continuation of a podcast we previously started back in 2019, where we deal with the most controversial topics within the religion of Islam. And I recommend anybody who may be coming across this for the first time to go to our channel on the playlist section, they can see all of our previous episodes on this podcast.
Having said all of that, it's obviously been a while since we last sat down together like this. So I want to begin by reminding you of the rules of this conversation. You're going to be put on the spot.
You're going to be questioned, you're going to be challenged, and you're going to be interrogated on a very controversial topic within Islam. And you're going to be required to defend your position. And I don't want to hear your opinion, because quite frankly, I don't care about your opinion.
I want you to bring forward proofs from the Quran and the Sunnah and the understanding of our pious predecessors. Are you willing to get involved in this conversation? الحمد لله رب العالمين له الحمد الحسن والثناء الجميل وأشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وحده لا شريك له يقول الحق وهو يهدي السبيل وأشهد أن محمدا عبده ورسوله صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وأصحابه والتابعين لهم بإحسان إلى يوم الدين أما بعد Firstly, I want to start by saying JazakAllah Khayran for having me. May Allah reward you abundantly.
And InshaAllah your request seems very fair and straightforward. JazakAllah Khayran. Okay, in that case, let's get started.
The topic we're going to be discussing today is the very controversial topic of LGBTQ in the religion of Islam. How does Islam view the LGBTQ movement? And I want to start by actually giving you the floor. And I'm happy for you to open up discussion in any way you seem fit.
So, our religion of Islam, there's a concept known as the Fitrah, the natural disposition. The way that Allah Ta'ala created a particular person or the way Allah created all mankind. The Fitrah, its usage is a lot in the religion and it has many different definitions, many different meanings.
But from one of its definitions is the way Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala created this person. And things that he has placed inside this person to know what is right from what is wrong, inclinations to things. And if you look at the Quranic discourse, you find that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala made what is known as a male and a female.
There's a purpose and a wisdom behind it. Every action of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala or any action of the actions of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, they have an infinite wisdom behind it. Let's take some Quran, some Quranic verses.
Allah Ta'ala says in the Quran, especially about the people of Lut, who Insha'Allah we will be speaking about. Allah Ta'ala says, وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلَقَ لَكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ مِنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ بَلْأَنْتُمْ قُوْمٌ عَدُونَ Allah is saying to them that you have left off what Allah has created for you, what Allah has made your Fitrah. You left them off, you have abandoned that.
And you have now become a transgressive group of people. Also Allah Ta'ala says in another Ayah, وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ From the verses of Allah Ta'ala or from the signs of Allah Ta'ala is أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُمْ مِنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا لِتَسْكُلُوا إِلَيْهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَوَدَّةً وَرَحْمَةً إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ Allah Ta'ala says from the signs of Allah Ta'ala, universal signs, is that Allah Ta'ala created من أنفسكم from you. Allah created from Adam Hawwa.
And the reason why, أَزْوَاجًا so you can be pairs. لِتَسْكُلُوا so you can find tranquility to your spouse, your partner, your wife. وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُمْ And Allah placed between you مَوَدَّة, compassion ورحمة and mercy.
And then after that Allah says إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ There are signs in all of this. Who is it for? لَكِنْ لِقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ The people who want to think and ponder over it. Also Allah says about the prophets that came before us وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِّن قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً Allah mentions here subhanahu wa ta'ala that he had sent before Muhammad messengers and prophets.
Allah says to the prophet These prophets we have made for them وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا We made for them wives. وَذُرِّيَّةً and progeny, children from this. Allah then says وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ Look at the entire Quran.
Look at the Ahadith. I give you two Before we go into Ahadith I want to interject immediately. I feel like you're bringing these ayaat from the Quran in an attempt to prove that for men that they have been created women.
And the word that you're using here is أَزْوَاج First of all that is a plural correct me if I'm wrong of زَوْج Is زَوْج Is that referred to a male or a female? The word زَوْج in Arabic language. The ayah that I mentioned if you remember clearly there were three verses I mentioned. The first verse was وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلَقَ لَكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ مِنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ And the second verse was the ayah where Allah says وَمِنْ آيَةِ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُمْ مِنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ And the third verse where Allah Ta'ala says وَلَقَدْ أَرَسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِّنْ قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجٍ وَذُرِّيًا Which is specific for the Rusul, for the messengers.
Let's exclude that because it says هُمْ أَزْوَاجِهُمْ Allah is talking about what He has made for them but not specifically for them. I mean the ayah doesn't say that it's specific to them. The context of the ayah.
Regardless, let's talk about the first two ayahs. I don't want to dismiss the first bit mainly because of the fact that the verse does support the fact that this is something Allah created naturally for the prophets who were the most noble of people. If this is how they were, then for everybody this is something that's going to be for them.
And Allah also mentioned in that He says وَذُرِّيًا, progeny. Rather, you won't find in the entire Quran the word أَزْوَاج used as two people who have the same sex. There's no usage of that in the Quran at all.
What does أَزْوَاج mean in the English language? It means pairs. A man and a man is a pair. But the story of Lot that I just mentioned and I'm going to mention more inshallah as the podcast unfolds.
Allah says وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلَقَ لَكُمْ You leave of that which Allah created for you. They left of women and they went towards men. So Allah is saying you're leaving of that which was created for you.
What is it that was created for them? مِنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ I personally believe Allah creates everything. Do you believe that? SubhanAllah, He does. So that means things that are part of our fitrah Allah has created.
And things that are not part of our fitrah Allah has also created that. So it doesn't prove to me that just because Allah created women it doesn't prove to me that it's part of the fitrah to only have relations with women for example. Repeat your question again.
So you're using the خَلَقَ here which Allah created to prove that Allah created this which means it must be part of the fitrah because Allah created it for you. My argument is that Allah created things that are part of the fitrah and Allah created things that aren't part of the fitrah because He created everything. Like such as? Growing a moustache for example.
That's not part of the fitrah to leave the moustache untrimmed. Do we agree that's not part of the fitrah? If you initially remember when I spoke about the concept of fitrah I said the word fitrah is used in many different meanings. From the meanings is a hadith of the Prophet ﷺ where he said خَمْسُ مِنَ الْفِطْرَةِ Five are from the fitrah and that's the one you're referring to.
And there's also fitrah being used as tawhid. Tawhid meaning? Allah says What does that mean in English? It's talking about there's not a person who's born except that he's born upon the fitrah. Then his parent comes and makes him a Christian or a Jew.
The fitrah here is talking about religion. So the tawhid and the believing of Allah's existence and his oneness is a fitrah that is innately built in everybody. So the term fitrah sometimes it refers to something which is gharizi innately built inside you.
For example someone may will not eat feces. عَفَانِ اللَّهُ وَإِيَّكَ Because it's not how do you know it's nasty? Where did you get from it's nasty? It's fitrah. This is what I'm saying.
Homosexuality is not something that goes in line with the fitrah. عَفَانِ اللَّهُ وَإِيَّكَ عَنْهُ He mentioned that the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم He said قَالَ لَنَا رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم The prophet spoke to us. He said يَا مَعْشَرَ الشَّبَابِ Youngsters, youths مَنْ إِسْتَطَعَ مِنْكُمُ الْبَاءَةَ فَلْيَتَزَوَّجْ Anyone who's able to get married then get married.
He said فَلْيَتَزَوَّجْ Go get married. فَإِنَّهُ أَغَضُّ لِّلْبَصَرِ And now we don't have any of the companions marrying a man. But he didn't specify in that hadith alone if we take the rahid of the text he didn't specify get married to women.
He could have he could have said anyone get married to the opposite sex but he didn't he said get married he left it unrestricted. But some things are just known out of necessity. Maybe to you maybe not to someone who's born gay for example.
But why did the companions not then understand this to be you know or anyone from the early generation why did they not understand it as you can go and get married to a man why did they not say the Prophet said فَلِيَتَ زَوَّجُ Because their understanding is very important to us. There are Arabs they know the way that the Prophet spoke. You see They have different tastes to us as well.
Just because it wasn't their flavor it doesn't mean it can't be someone's flavor in the 21st century that's unfair that's ethnocentricity. Whatever they decide in that time just because they didn't want to marry the same sex doesn't mean that the hadith still restricts marriage marrying the same sex. The hadith is not only just taken based on its wording alone we also go back to the understanding of the early generation as you mentioned in the introduction of our series so the Sahaba's فَلِيَتَ زَوَّجُ not one companion thought and understood this to mean we're talking about 120,000 companions who came to him in the year of Hajjatul Wada when he did his final sermon not one of them understood فَلِيَتَ زَوَّجُ to mean go get married to a man or you can get married to a man and I'm going to come to their consensus of what they said about a person who's homosexual their unanimous agreement on that issue so the word فَلِيَتَ زَوَّجُ is crystal clear naturally it's crystal clear another thing the hadith mentions is that it lowers your gaze getting married and it says أَحْسَنُ لِفَرْجِ it protects your private part وَمَلَّمْ يَسْطَطِ anyone who's unable to do this the Prophet could have set another rule he could have said okay if you can't get married to a woman he didn't specify when the first place that's my argument I'm saying that he did because remember the concept of you look at the statement and the audience that you're talking to the relationship between the Prophet's speech and the people he's talking to and how they understood it and they implemented it has now we look at your statement how they understood it and implemented it came after his speech no all of them were marrying at his time peace be upon him but the implementation of that particular hadith acting upon the amr must have come after the amr was spoken that's just logical it's common sense right yeah so they all so the implementation came after so he didn't know how they were going to implement it so you can't really say that they implemented it this way therefore it's restricted it's like a circular argument I feel no what I'm no it's not a circular argument it's so clear that the Prophet commanded something and these people all implemented it in this way unanimously without any one of them being an exception okay and also the urf of Quran the Quran has a custom and a way it talks for example we see the word a verse being used in this way being used in this way in the whole entire Quran we give it a ruling Abdullam Ibn Abbas he said the word wherever you find it in the Quran it means single Allah in worship it doesn't just mean worship Allah how did he know that he followed the entire Quran he followed the Quran in the way it talks and took from there a general comprehensive rule the word in the Quran in the hadiths in the statements of the early scholars no one ever used the word to mean a man and a man or a woman and a woman no one's ever used it in that way and that does say a lot by the way this was not something that was not seen at the time of the Prophet because he has he has statements about it Alayhi Salatu Wasalam okay but he's never ever referred to a homosexual activity he hasn't ever referred to it Salallahu Alaihi Wasalam as Zawaj a marriage just the same way if a boyfriend and girlfriend were together they can't say we're married just because we're both of us have consented and we're together it doesn't make it marriage is in Islam something that has it's definitions marriage is a contract between two people would we agree on that it's not just a contract you see that's the thing it's an Islamic contract okay it's Faliyatul Zawaj Fa innahu aghadhu lil basari wa ahsanu lil farji wa man lam yastatik fa alayhi bisawm the Prophet instructed the person who can't find a wife or the wife that couldn't find a husband he said to them both you know go to another option which is to fast and fasting is what's gonna help you fa innahu lahu wija fasting will castrate this desire of yours Bukhari and Muslim both narrated it so the question I wanna also come to inshallah ta'ala and I think it calls for itself now is that this concept goes against what initially was mentioned in the Quran because Allah ta'ala spoke to people of Lord and I'm gonna speak about that inshallah ta'ala if you've got more questions regarding that they left off an action which is going for the women and they were rebuked for that and so they were instructed what they should be doing which is to go for the women and Lord alayhi salam inshallah when he said to them you know these are women out here go and go go for these women go get married to these women he instructed them to that direction because that's the fitrah so we're gonna come to those ayat but at the very least would we agree and I concede you brought some strong arguments at the very least would we agree that even if we say marrying the opposite gender is part of the fitrah it doesn't mean that marrying the same gender is haram or wrong but the only reason I say that and I'm sure we're gonna come to that I'm sure we're gonna come to that in a lot more detail the reason I say that is because if we say marrying the opposite gender is part of the fitrah for someone who doesn't marry like Sheikh al-Islam for example we don't say it's haram but it's not part of the fitrah not to get married not to get married is not part of the fitrah if you're saying part of the fitrah is to marry the opposite gender by definition then not marrying at all is not part of the fitrah some scholars mentioned that Ibn Taymiyyah's situation was that he didn't have desires for women so that does go against the natural disposition of men there's Imam Nawawi there's other people that I know in my life in the real world they do have desires but they choose not to get married for different reasons some things are like for example there are women for example menstruation doesn't happen to them for example that's not natural you see we have women who but it's not a sin that's my point we're gonna get to this just because something is not part of the fitrah my argument is this something is not part of the fitrah I concede marrying the opposite gender is part of the fitrah something not being part of the fitrah doesn't automatically make it halal do we agree on that and we can talk about it later we can talk about that but can we say the alteration and the changing of that fitrah is not from a natural reason it's shaitan interfering this is my point so someone who doesn't get married for example at all they've changed the fitrah that's shaitan interfering that's if I agree that that's not fitrah I said that would mean I agree that that's but you just said the fitrah is to marry the opposite gender by definition it's not marrying no I said marriage is the fitrah marriage is the fitrah then marrying same sex is part of marriage that's my argument marriage is the fitrah that's what I said to you marriage according to the state or the country or the government that you're in maybe Britain might see that to be marriage but I'm saying Islam if there's no two witnesses it's not a marriage if the wali of the girl hasn't married her off there are conditions that makes this a marriage so in Islam sorry it's not so marriage is part of the fitrah that means not getting married is not part of the fitrah we have to say that by definition that's no let's be general and then whoever's outside that discussion it's a different discussion whoever chooses not to get married who doesn't want to get married for whatever reason we're going to look at that person as if you met someone who said I don't want to get married the second question you're going to ask is there a reason whereas if you met somebody who doesn't or if you met someone who was choosing to get married and he wanted to get married you wouldn't say to him why do you want to get married for but if you met someone who doesn't want to get married you wouldn't immediately say ittaqillah that's haram you wouldn't right the default ruling on someone who doesn't want to get married before we look into his circumstances is that he's not sinning it's just a personal choice can we at least agree to that we should be able to agree to that and then we can talk about homosexuality in more detail yeah I don't want to conflate two things personally what I don't want to conflate with one another is that I don't want to use the issue of whether it's sin or whether it's not on one hand and on the other hand that this is what Shaytan let me just Shaytan interferes let me just give a hadith there's a hadith narrated from the Prophet the Prophet gave a khutbah one day and what he said in his khutbah is he said Allah commanded me to teach you guys what you're ignorant of in which Allah has taught me this day he said every wealth that a person has earned in a right way is halal for them look what he then said after that he said I've created my slaves upon the fitrah okay وَإِنَّهُمْ أَتَتْهُمُ الشَّيَاطِينُ فَجْتَالَتْهُمْ عَنْ دِينِهِمْ Shaytan came to them and diverted that from them وَحَرَّمَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ مَا أَحْلَلْتُ لَهُمْ and that Shaytan what it did to them is that it made haram from them that which I made halal for them وَأَمَرَتْهُمْ أَن يُشْرِكُوا بِي مَا لَمْ أُنَزِلْ بِهِ سُلْطَالَهَا and it commanded them Shaytan commanded them to associate partners with me without any proof so we were born upon that fitrah that way it's Shaytan one way or another he introduces something to us okay introduces something to us which then tamper with our natural disposition when the scholars they speak about the biography of these great Imams they don't say that follow them in this action it's noble what he did we follow the Prophet in that issue we don't say Shaykh Ustadh Ibn Taymiyyah never married so that's the good way and everybody should we don't say Ibn Taymiyyah was a sin the reason is because he didn't marry because of the the raqba for a woman was it present in him we do say Shaytan tampered with him because that's what you're arguing now no I'm saying to you that no this is a a medical situation for the Shaykh رحمه الله تعالى so there might be a medical situation for people who fancy the same sex a sex which has the same sex would allow that no if there's a desire and a thought and a idea and a want for it I think that is different from the issue of going out there and actually propagating for the concept of homosexuality I want to go there I want to commit you know this act I want to fulfill it is a different situation but what I mean is that Shaykh Ustadh Ibn Taymiyyah's issue of not wanting to get married let's clear it if a person is getting closer to Allah by not wanting to get married they're choosing not to get married because they want to get closer to Allah then this is an innovation they sin for that and if a person doesn't want to get married because he doesn't have the desire for it his shahwa is low his desire is extremely low then Islam doesn't force you to get married it's permissible for you to get married but this is the fitrah this is the normal way to get married is natural if you then you can tap down and say I don't want to get married I want to be alone Islam does urge you to get married because of wanting to have children have an offspring, a progeny so it's permissible to leave the fitrah it is permissible to leave the fitrah just like you said now that's what I'm getting at I said again the word fitrah is a multifaceted word so if you say leave the fitrah of tawhid tawhid is the fitrah no I'm talking about marriage specifically so you're saying if a person can leave marriage yeah it's permissible yeah a person can leave marriage if he doesn't want to because he doesn't have the desire or he doesn't want to he doesn't desire to get married and marriage is part of the fitrah yeah but it's not you see when I say it's part of the fitrah it doesn't mean it's wajib okay that's what I wanted from you actually just if something is part of the fitrah like for example marrying the opposite gender is part of the fitrah it doesn't mean it's wajib no it doesn't necessarily mean it's wajib no correct there's a point I want to mention inshallah ta'ala that is before we go into the topic of homosexuality because a lot of people think that Islam is directly attacking only homosexuality and that's what it's against and it's homosexuals that the problem is and you know alone they are part of the problem but they're not alone there's other issues that Islam talks about when it comes to the concept of sexuality and that is the concept of having sexual intercourse with a woman that you're not married to deliberately having sexual intercourse with her and this is called zina in Islam also Islam has a very strong position regarding that Allah ta'ala says in the Quran وَلَا تَقْرَبُ الزِّنَا do not come close to zina إِنَّهُ كَانَ فَاحِشَةً وَسَاءَ سَبِيلًا do not come close to zina for verily it's an evil act also Allah ta'ala when He speaks about the righteous slaves of His عِبَادُ الرَّحْمَنِ Allah ta'ala He says وَالَّذِينَ لَا يَدْعُونَ مَعَ اللَّهِ إِلَهًا آغَرًا وَلَا يَقْتُلُونَ النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَا يَزْنُونَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ يَلْقَى أَثَامًا يُضَاعَفْ لَهُ الْعَذَابُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَيَخْلُطُ فِيهِ مُهَانًا Allah says they are not ones who associate partners with Allah عِبَادُ الرَّحْمَنِ nor are they ones who kill they don't kill innocent people also وَلَا يَزْنُونَ punishment for it يُضَاعَفْ لَهُ الْعَذَابُ the punishment will be multiplied for him the day of judgment يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَيَخْلُطُ فِيهِ مُهَانًا Zina was mentioned in the context of murdering an innocent person it was mentioned in the concept of committing shirk associating partners with Allah also our messenger in the hadith of Ubadah ibn Samit and the ayahs also in Surah Al Mumtahina as well where the messenger ﷺ would give pledge of allegiance to the people to stay away from Zina he would say يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ the ayah says يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يُبَيِعْنَكَ عَلَىٰ أَلَّا يُشْرِكْنَ بِاللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَسْرِقْنَا وَلَا يَزْنِيْنَ وَلَا يَقُتُلْنَا أُولَادَهُنَّ وَلَا يَتِينَ بِبُهْتَانٍ محمد if the women come to you يُبَيِعْنَكَ to give pledge of allegiance to you عَلَىٰ أَلَّا يُشْرِكْنَ بِاللَّهِ and the conditions of that بَيْعَة is what عَلَىٰ أَلَّا يُشْرِكْنَ بِاللَّهِ شَيْئًا they are not going to associate partners with Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ وَلَا يَسْرِقْنَا وَلَا يَزْنِيْنَ they are not going to steal and they are not going to commit Zina so the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم took a very tough position regarding Zina and so did the Quran the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم actually stripped Iman from the person who commits Zina and Imam Al-Bukhari narrated it on the authority of Ibn Abbas لَا يَزْنِي زَانِ حِينَ يَزْنِي وَهُو مُؤْمِنٌ that a person does not commit Zina whilst he is committing Zina as a believer so it's important that we understand that Islam is against a person to go out there and fornicate or even do adultery and fornication and adultery I hope the listeners know the difference fornication is way before marriage and adultery is after you get married and the punishments are both different you see it's even seen as a sin if a man touches the opposite gender before marriage or if he kisses the opposite gender لذلك the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم at his time a man came and at the time of the Prophet he kissed a woman فأتى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم the man came to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and he told him يا رسول الله I just kissed a woman the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم he went quiet and the ayah came down وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ طَرَى فَإِنَّ هَذِي وَزُلَفًا مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَاتِ يُتْهِبْنَا السَّيِّئَاتِ that the righteous deeds that you do will eradicate that sin that you just committed فقال الرجل meaning the man just prayed with the Prophet after he prayed the Salah he asked the Prophet this question so the Salah that he prayed eradicated and removed and expiated for him the sin that he committed فقال الرجل the man then said أَلِيْ هَذَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَلِيْ هَذَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ is this for me or is it for everybody else and the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم لِجَمِيعُ أُمَّتِي كُلِّهِمْ this is for all of my Ummah finally there is a Hadith where there was a man whose name was Ma'iz Ibn Malik Ma'iz went and he committed Zina with a woman he had a Zina he did it with her so when he came to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to talk about what he did the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said to him قُبْلَتَ he goes and then the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم he put him through the legislated Islamic punishment the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and Bukhari narrated it the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم asked him all of that because all of that there's no punishment for it the expiation of his righteous deeds will get rid of it the point I'm trying to draw here the point I'm trying to bring to your attention is that Islam is very strong and tough on the issue of where you can fulfill your desires where you can go and fulfill your desires it has to be done in an organized, sanctioned manner, whether it's through homosexuality or it's through zina, Islam condemns them all okay so I tell you I really like that and I'm really glad that you said that and the thing I like most about that is that there's such clear prohibitions لا تقلبوا زنا there's a clear prohibition don't even come close to zina and I hope when we get into the topic of the ruling on homosexuality and the evidences I hope we have clear commands that's just saying don't even come near it, don't do it instead of trying to bring our own understanding of these verses to prove that it's either part of the fitrah or not part of the fitrah or to prove that it's allowed or not allowed I hope that we have some of those clear verses inshallah and we're going to come to that soon I just want to, before we do I just feel like it's relevant since we were talking about the fitrah to address this issue of many people who say that they were actually born homosexual according to you that's not true, that's not valid because it's not part of the fitrah, have I understood you correctly? If I can just take a step back and I just want to point out something we're going to be talking about homosexuality so we have to really understand what homosexuality is in the religion of Islam, what does homosexuality mean in Islam and one of the things that scholars do in works, in books is that they define terms and so the discussion goes through and we get to an agreement on this issue, so the word we're talking about here in the Arabic language is liwat and liwat in the sharia is literally categorized into two types, there are two types of liwat, two types of homosexuality activity in Islam there's a lotiyatun sughra and there's a lotiyatun kubra what does that mean? It means there's a minor homosexuality and a major one what is the minor one and what is the major one? The minor one is when a man has sexual intercourse with his wife with his wife from the back passage this is a homosexual activity it's a homosexual action this is, and the base for that and the evidence for that is the Hadith Ibn Abbas radiallahu ta'ala anhuma al-imam al-nasa'i and al-tirmidhi and tabarani, they all narrated it, bi-sanadin hasan al-tirmidhi graded it to be hasan and so did shaykh Nasir rahimahu allahu ta'ala where Umar radiallahu anhu came to the Prophet ﷺ and he said halaktu, I'm destroyed O Messenger of Allah, I did something that's going to destroy me so the Prophet ﷺ he said to him wa ma ahlakaka, what is it that destroyed you? what did you do? He said ya Rasulallah hawwaltu rahli which was a kinaya, the sahabs were very very well mannered people, they wouldn't speak with vulgar so hawwaltu rahli is a figurative speech of basically saying I changed the direction of my sexual intercourse with my wife so the Prophet ﷺ didn't respond by the way Umar is saying that I had sexual intercourse with her from the front passage but while she's on her floor that's what Umar is saying that direction changed and so the ayah came down nisaukum harthul lakum fa'tu harathakum an nasheetum that your wives are like your harath, your garden come to them the way that you wish then the Messenger explained what that meant he said aqbil wa adbir wa taqid dubura wal hayzata turn her, toss her change the direction as long as you don't come to her from the back passage and you come to her from the from the front, that's all that and stay away from her while she's on her menstruation the Prophet also said in another hadith and Imam Abu Dawood and Tirmidhi narrated it and the wording that I'm going to mention is the wording of Imam Tirmidhi the Prophet ﷺ he said man ata ha'idhan anyone who has sexual intercourse with a woman who is on her menstruation so again Islam way before homosexuality having sexual intercourse with a woman while she's on her menstruation is prohibited o imra'atan fee duburiha or has sexual intercourse with his wife from the back passage o kahinan or he goes to a fortune teller fasaddaqahu bima yaqulu and then believes in that fortune teller faqad kafara bima unzila ala muhammad that person has disbelieved in that which has been sent down on Nabi Allah that's dangerous now so having sexual intercourse with your wife from the back passage has been mentioned in the context of going to a fortune teller you see and believing that fortune teller the Prophet then said faqad kafara bima unzila ala muhammad that person has disbelieved in that which was sent on the Prophet ﷺ so two things you can't even do with your own wife you can't come to her from the back passage and you also can't come to her while she's on her menstruation so that's the minor type of homosexuality keep this in mind and I think a lot of listeners inshallah ta'ala I want them to keep this in mind which is the minor homosexuality is a stepping stone to the major one and as I answer your question inshallah ta'ala that many people say this is natural you know no we're going to prove that because if you say that homosexuality is a natural action and here on the other side the Quran and the Sunnah are saying that it's haram and the sins and the consequences are very high you're basically saying Allah Ta'ala is oppressing us and Allah says in the Quran Allah is not one that oppresses his faith but it is natural you would agree that for a man to desire a woman for example that's natural right? and obviously no one's born married so there's a period of time where you have that desire inside you and you can't you're not married for example doesn't that go against the ayah that you just quoted? doesn't that go against the principle that you're trying to bring here that Allah has created this way? Allah created men to want to have sexual intercourse with women the Quran did not prohibit that from them nor did Allah Ta'ala prohibit them from that, the Prophet didn't nor did Allah, Allah just said just do it in a disciplined manner.
But not everybody can get married, that's my point if you don't have the ability to get married whether it would be financially whether it would be physically you don't have the physical ability to get married there are ways that you can solutions that were set for you fast homosexuality is something that we are saying Allah Ta'ala has mentioned severe consequences for it, there are severe punishments that we're going to speak about saying that Allah has made this natural for me, it's natural that I feel this way you're indirectly or directly saying Allah is oppressive, that's one evidence for me, let me add another evidence onto that, also we are saying that homosexuality as I go in is an act which is abhorrent it's an act which is evil in Islam it's seen as a very despicable thing that being said saying that Allah created me this way and Allah has no problem with this you're saying Allah Ta'ala is allowing me to do something which is fahish something that is evil and abhorrent and Allah Ta'ala says in the Quran قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَةَ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ Allah does not command that which is fahisha and that which is evil and bad now inshallah Ta'ala I want to go into the next part which is al-lutiyatul khubra the major form of homosexuality, the major form which is a man having sexual intercourse with a man and also a man having sexual intercourse with a woman from the back passage who is not his wife this is also al-lutiyatul khubra Allah Ta'ala spoke about it in the Quran do you leave of marrying women by the way Allah Ta'ala before that he says أَتَأْتُونَ الذُّكْرَانَ مِنَ الْعَالَمِينَ are you coming to the men and you leave of ما خَلَقَ لَكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ that which your lord has created for you meaning women مِنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ your wives, you are leaving of your wives بَلْأَنْتُمْ قَوْمٌ عَادُونَ you are transgressive people also Allah Ta'ala when he speaks about the people of Lot he says وَالْوَطَنَ آتَيْنَاهُ حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا we gave Lot wisdom and knowledge وَنَجَّيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِي كَانَ تَعْمَلُوا الْخَبَائِثِ and we saved him from the village and the town that used to do the abhorrent act, Allah referred to it as what تَعْمَلُوا الْخَبَائِثِ that's an abhorrent and evil action إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمَ سَوءٍ فَاسِقِينَ that these are transgressors, criminals سورة الأنبياء الله mentioned that Allah also said in another ayah when he was speaking about the people of Lot, he said وَالْوَطَنَ إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ Lot when he said to his people أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُمْ بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِنَ الْعَالَمِينَ and they were the first people to practice this, there was no one before the people of Lot who practiced homosexuality and that shows you that it's not a fitrah and Allah says إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الْرِجَالَ شَهْوَةً مِنْ دُونِ النِّسَاءِ you come with your desires the men besides the women so this again shows you Islam is about the women marrying a woman, being intimate with a woman not a man, Allah then says بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌ مُسْرِفُونَ then Allah mentions وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلَّا أَنْ قَالُوا أَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَتِكُمْ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسُ يَتَطَهَرُونَ again this is what you tend to find a lot, people speak about homosexuality, who condemn homosexuality, who says that this action is not right, it's immoral it should be stopped, these people need help they need medical attention, they need help, we shouldn't take advantage from them and put them on the pulpits and discuss and hear their side of the story we shouldn't, these people need help you're equating it to a mental illness I am, I'm saying it's an illness it's a sickness, they need help people like that when you speak about it and you say this action is wrong, guess what happens what Lord happened to him which is وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلَّا أَنْ قَالُوا أَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَتِكُمْ إِلَّا أَنْ قَالُوا أَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَتِكُمْ take this man out of the village and the town إِنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَسُوا يَتَطَهَّرُونَ the only thing that Lord's crime was that he's a pure person that's what you find people get banned from one country and another country or they're in a country and they get told to leave that country all they said is that I believe this action is immoral, it's wrong this action is wrong, these people what they're doing is wrong, it's incorrect also the Prophet ﷺ he said in a hadith, Ibn Abbas narrated it and Ahmed Wal Arbaa narrated it he's finding small books like Bukhari not Muslim those books didn't narrate it no Abdullah Ibn Abbas radiallahu ta'ala anhuma he narrated that the Prophet ﷺ said مَنْ وَجَدْ تُبُوهُ أَنِيُّهُمْ يَعْمَلُ عَمَلَ قَوْمِ قَوْمِ لُوطٍ doing the action of the people of Lot فَقْتُلُوا الْفَاعِلَ وَالْمَفْعُولَ بِهِ the hadith clearly says that the Islamic government will have to take this matter into their own hands and the Islamic government has to execute the one that did it and the one it was done to which part of the hadith says the Islamic government, because I thought you said if any of you find and فَقْتُلُوا it was never it was never ever done that to at the time of the Messenger ﷺ for many reasons, the reason why the hadith says if anyone of you sees it or finds it, it's because the government won't go into people's houses and find them doing this the finding will generally happen from the people, the society will find these people. By the way, if someone's doing homosexual activities at home and is hiding it, no one's going to investigate and look for them and bring them out Is that allowed in Islam? No, the action is not allowed in any way shape or form we're talking about the consequence of that action no one's allowed to break into their house and find them and if they want to do it behind closed doors and they're hiding it from the community, that saves them from any punishment Don't you think that the Messenger ﷺ who we say is, you know, even his hadith are not coming from his own mouth or his own desires don't you think the wording could have been clearer in that that he's saying that if any of you find it he could have said if any of you find it report it to the authorities, for example, and I'd have been with you, that's quite clear but he didn't. He said if any of you find it, talking to you as in everybody he went on to say But that's my point, you're talking to people who knew the Prophet ﷺ the way he spoke you see, you're right people like us who've become distanced from the Prophet's way of speech the way the Prophet ﷺ spoke the way that the Prophet ﷺ discussed issues you and I, okay, we're foreigners Arabic is not maybe our first language I thought Islam was for all times and for all places It is, it's not saying it isn't but what it's saying is that there's a way to understand the way the Prophet ﷺ spoke you know it is a way for all of us to try to take the steps to understand when the Prophet ﷺ spoke, the Sahabas all understood it as to mean that the Islamic government will do that because there has to be a due process to know that this person really did it.
What's your proof of that? Because at that time there were no you said the Sahabas, they didn't implement homosexuality for example, so how do you know that if they didn't see a homosexual they wouldn't have killed themselves, for example? Because what the Prophet ﷺ did with the other, with the person who committed zina, Ma'iz ibn Malik Ma'iz came to the Prophet ﷺ, he mentioned his sin, the Prophet ﷺ spoke to him about it that's the system Is zina and homosexuality the same sin? Or is homosexuality worse than zina? Both of them are execution but both of them are both execution any man who's been through marriage and goes and commits zina with a woman in Islam it's execution as well homosexuality also in Islam in Islam it's stated that it's execution Now no one understood it as to mean you go and do it yourself and the Sahabas by as a side point they unanimously agreed there's not khilaf amongst the Sahabas that the person who commits zina sorry the person who does homosexuality who does homosexual action that that person should be or has sexual intercourse with a man that person should be killed, the Sahabas did not dispute one another in that issue so it's a unanimous agreement on their side so now I've broken down to you the two types of lawtiya as-sughra and al-kubra the major and the minor if a wife has a husband who's having sexual intercourse from the back passage she shouldn't allow that to happen, she should stop him and if he consistently carries on she should complain to those who can stop him from this because this is what's leading to towards al-lawtiya al-kubra a community one like that okay I think you've set some really good foundations for the rest of our discussion you've talked about how homosexuality is not part of the fitrah, you've talked about that Islam is not just purely against homosexuality it's also against zina and other things and you've defined homosexuality and naturally as our conversation has progressed we've talked a little bit about the ruling and the punishment which we're going to revisit in a bit more detail inshallah I want to go back now to the first point you raised which was the fitrah my question is you have homosexuals today who are clearly telling you I was born this way who are you? what is your right to say no you weren't? you're not them, you don't know how they feel the as I said to you before from all of those evidences from the Quran and the sunnah and the Quran and sunnah as Muslims is our source, that's where we go back to Allah says the believer that's where he runs back to we run to as Muslims to the Quran and the sunnah that's where answers any question that we have, the answer is always there now in the Quran we've just taken that Allah looks at this action as to be something evil, something despicable he looked at his action which is from the actions of the fasiqeen he looked at Allah refers to it as a people who've transgressed so it's then not right that this is something naturally built inside a person to want this opposite gender so the same gender as them same sex but there's no way they're allowed, and this is natural humans naturally have things like jealousy, selfishness for example, and we're told for example, that none of you will truly believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself all of these things that you shouldn't be jealous of other people, but these are natural inclinations that humans are born with jealousy in Islam is only bad when you're having jealousy, you want that blessing to be removed from that person or you have jealousy from them something that's not good, but if I have jealousy of someone, in a good matter and I still want Allah to bless them with that thing and not take it away from them, we have evidence that allow it Selfishness? Selfishness is a characteristic of if I want for myself to save myself from the hellfire I want to save myself from the hellfire and I want to be the first person to enter Jannah, for example or I make a dua first for myself, the Prophet said in a hadith narrated, he said if one of you wants to make dua let him start with himself all the Prophets when they made dua, they first of all started with themselves they said so, selfishness unrestricted like that, yes but as a Muslim the day of judgment the concept that's going to happen is, the mother is going to run away from her daughter, the son and everything, everyone's going to run away and everyone's going to say, the Prophets are going to say that they're selfish, selfish, myself, myself what I mean is I'm trying to prove here is that Zina is haram but it's set a way that you can go to it so it's not like you're blocked away from it wanting a woman is natural it's very natural, so Islam said ok, since it's natural, Allah created that in us, the creation and the rulings from the Quran and the Sunnah they don't contradict one another they complement one another they work together so this man wants this woman so badly the Quran and the Sunnah, what did they do? they said you can go to her father speak to her father, let him give you the consent get two witnesses set a dowry, she's yours let's flip this homosexuality it's natural it's natural but you can never do this with a man that means Allah is oppressing this person something natural, he's prohibiting from it, and I'm telling you you have to understand Allah is not one that oppresses creation also what you're saying is that here we have all of these ayats which is saying that it's fahisha, it is fisq it is, the punishment is very severe these rulings that we just mentioned are being stated for the homosexual and here you're saying that Allah allowed me to be like this Allah created me in this Allah commanding you to do this and I said to you in the ayah Allah does not command that which is evil Allah only commands the creation that which is good there is another reconciliation between what you're saying and what homosexuals for example say that they were born this way and that is that Allah created them this way as a test for example let's give an example as racism, because a lot of homosexuals they always compare the issue of homosexuality to racism for example someone is born black and they're born in an area, geographical region where it's predominantly white and black people are being oppressed, this is natural for them to be born black, it's not against the fitrah to be born black do we agree? and they didn't choose this, they were born this way do we agree? but this is a huge test on them because suddenly they're going to struggle to find a job, they're going to struggle to get married they're going to, they didn't choose any of this but it's a test that Allah has placed on them why can't we say that homosexuals were born gay they're telling us they're born gay it's not a choice, we agree with you but Allah has decreed this for you as a test, why can't we say that? you know there's a community of people today who believe who are arguing now murdering people is not something I've chosen to kill people I feel a type of feeling serial killers don't have the feeling that you and I have right now when someone is hurting someone, they find pleasure in that can you hear music? yeah can you hear music? so why are you dancing around my question? can you answer the question straight please? I asked we're not talking about murder, murder is a different thing we're talking about homosexuality people can be born gay as a test that's my claim, do you agree or disagree? I'm saying to you the claim that they are claiming it is a fallacy and a mistaken belief, the reason why I say that is because first of all from the Quranic discourse and from the Ahadith it's null and void and that is what means a lot to us second thing is scientifically this is something that cannot be proven it's been proven that by real researchers who tried their best tried to look into this issue, came to the conclusion that being homosexual doesn't really have anything to do with a person's genetic science is not our yardstick and you know that better than me I first of all used the Quran and the Sunnah and then I said to you, we do want to ask those people who have studied science who I mean, we want to see what they have to say they've come back and said look you know what, to be very honest and frank with you there isn't anything to say, there's nothing called the gay gene it doesn't exist, rather guess what my humble research they said that two identical twins who both share the same DNA one turns out to be gay and the other one doesn't turn out to be gay this is something that both of them should be gay if it's genetics I'm going to put science aside, I'm going to go back to Quran and Sunnah Quran and Sunnah can we agree that according to the Quran and Sunnah someone can be born with disabilities physical disabilities right? that's a test upon them, do we agree? why can't we say that's the same with homosexuality they were born this way, it's a test for them to suppress their desires they have to suppress this but they were born this way, why can't we say that? prove bring an evidence for homosexuality being natural first, I'm saying I will accept that argument of yours, if you can prove to me that homosexuality is something natural do you accept that testimony is a way of evidence in Islam? I think people it is an evidence but it is an evidence but not everybody who testifies to something is necessarily telling the truth we see people go to courts lie about a testimony or something, I'm saying to you and this is my humble research as well, and that is all the people I've met who've come to me privately, sat with me and said between me and you, I'm having problems, and I'm talking about more than 5 people I've met that's a very small sample size but what they all have in common those 5 people I've sat with that's the ones I can remember now all of which I've asked them private questions I've asked them, have you been exposed to pornography? they say yes I've asked them, have you been abused as a child? they say yes not all of them, but some of them say yes they get exposed to things that bring about these things these things get they come out from the environment that they're in the people they interact with also do you not believe environment has an effect on a person? it's an external factor right? these are all external factors that the person after that, the person gets tested you can't blame Allah for genetically placing this in you no it's not, serial killers are not born murderers there are external factors that make them the way they are shape them into this same bravery, courage, all of these are their choices I'm not saying that everybody who's homosexual has chosen to be homosexual, that would be unfair for me to say so I don't believe everybody's chosen to be homosexual there's innocent people I've met who genuinely don't like it themselves not many people would choose to be homosexual in a world where gay rights are so minimal why would you put yourself through that hardship for no reason, through choice? it doesn't make sense so some people have been imposed on them this feeling by either being raped as a child or they did things to themselves that brought this feeling to them now they are saying this is not my choice homosexuality per se is not my choice I did other things, that was my choice but this is not my choice I'll say to you you really have to understand that this is not something Allah created you in and this is the conflation I'm finding between, many people are saying it's a choice that the person made, a blank statement like that the same way people who love to just go commit zina, there are people who love to go commit zina, they've got a wife and they were born that way, no? with that desire for women so Islam fulfilled that in ways, Allah biologically is the one who created the creation and Allah you see I really want this point to be driven home I really want people to understand this point which is, the creator is the legislator the creator is the legislator the creator here is the legislator, these two go hand in hand I agree with you but it doesn't dismiss the fact that Allah can create people and legislate a test for them, a specific test for that person and you said prove that people I mentioned testament the natural according to me and my understanding the default position when you meet an upright Muslim and he says something you believe him, what he says if you have an upright Muslim who is trying to be steadfast but he has homosexual tendencies and he's trying to suppress them and he's praying, he's not an upright Muslim he said I was born this way who are you, as a heterosexual man to come and say you weren't born that way can you imagine someone telling you right now you don't actually fancy women, you're programmed to believe that it's not natural it feels almost offensive and that's what I feel like you're doing right now I told you that again you're right those who, your argument would stand if I was on the side of those who were saying all of this is your choice you did this to yourself not necessarily, I don't believe that I'm saying that it could happen that a person gets raped and now they feel this way and this is not in their it's not what they did to themselves I honestly see that there was a case I dealt with like that I saw that he's saying to you, I don't like this but I feel a certain way you see, I want to draw a point home which is Allah Ta'ala says in the Quran لِلَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ يَخُلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ يَهَبُ لِمَن يَشَاءُ إِنَاثًا وَيَهَبُ لِمَن يَشَاءُ الذُّكُورِ وَيُزَوِّجُهُمْ ذُكْرَانًا وَإِنَاثًا وَيَجْعَلُ مَن يَشَاءُ عَقِيمًا إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ قَدِيرٌ in this ayah Allah Ta'ala He tells us that He is the one who created the Samawat I give some people just girls and I give another group of people only boys and some people Allah says I give them boys and I give them girls and some people Allah Ta'ala He says وَيَجْعَلُ مَن يَشَاءُ عَقِيمًا and some people Allah makes them Aqeem and if they can't have children إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ قَدِيرٌ Allah then says I am the one who has knowledge and ability and I have ability also in another ayah Allah says وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيرَةُ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَى عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ Allah is the one who creates whatever He wishes and He chooses He chooses how يعني شايد I really want this point like I really think this is this whole argument goes back to this if you created yourself then you can judge for yourself you can legislate for yourself but the one who created you سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَى He knows you better than you know yourself He knows your body what it needs and what it doesn't need He knows what your body can handle and what it can't handle do you know right now in the homosexuality is a money making machine don't you ever teach yourself that the west are actually so concerned about these people and they're trying to give them their rights well رَبِّ الْكَرْبَةِ they don't care it's a money making thing they make money from all of this these people when they have sexual intercourse the body can't handle it so the surgeries that he has to do and there's money that goes into that you see there are things that are happening homosexuality has to spread for them to be able to produce homosexual pornography for people to watch this is a money making thing so is opposite gender marriage so is heterosexual marriage because you have children and children are more expensive than a one off operation imagine the cost of a child and then another person in your economy building you know what's actually really shocking no that's not the case statistics have actually proven in America that the the surgery that needs to be done for the person who's homosexual the medical attention he needs after that the check ups that he has to come to to maintain the health and the way he is the depression that they go through and the psychiatrist that they have to go and visit it's a money making thing the west are not concerned about these people the ones on top are laughing this is a money making thing and we are here running around saying it's haram that's not what their focus is they don't care whether it's right or wrong or moral or immoral they only know that this is a money making thing Allah says in another ayah Allah created the samawat and he created the earth all of that in six days then he rose above his throne then Allah mentions Allah mentions here that the day, the night alternating between one another the sun and the moon all of these are working because of Allah's command then he says am I not the one who created is he not then the one who has the rights to legislate exalted is he human beings only look out for their own benefits these people who are passing the laws for homosexuals and allowing them to get married by the way, when homosexuals get married when homosexuals get married, there is money that they get from it their registration it's a whole entire money making process they are just looking out for themselves and ways to make money from this Allah is not like that Allah is looking out for this person's need and what benefits him Allah doesn't have a hidden agenda from all of this could you yourself as a heterosexual man could you imagine being homosexual for one day for a million pounds not at all so people aren't doing this for money it wouldn't be possible to do it for money if you actually are heterosexual it's not possible, I couldn't bring myself to do that I'm not saying the people who are homosexuals are making money from it no I'm not, I'm saying the heterosexuals the governments are making money from these homosexuals who are ill, who need help who need medical attention, instead of helping them putting them through a program that helps them what they are actually doing to them is what utilizing them, abusing them you know, taking advantage of them to be honest and that's a reality, that's a true reality that we see, because everything that they do schemes that they put about policies that they've made all of that, in no way shape or form, is it that they care about these people and the way that they are not to mention alienizing these people and demonizing them, and ostracizing them from society is also something that the governments don't want because voting, numbers all of this is a political power and a political gain from them and their number growing is politicians when they want to be voted this is what they use, I'll do this for the gay rights, I will do this for the lesbian rights and I'll do this LGBTQ and the acronyms is becoming too much now it's a very interesting argument قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ All my evidence that I've provided you with, the Quran and the Sunnah, has been what saved the civilization of this world the world, countries and governments and empires were built, not by fighting for the rights of homosexuals and it wasn't we're only seeing that now and what I've seen SubhanAllah, is that people argue for the rights and the huqooq of these creation, they say the rights of homosexuals, why are you depriving them from their rights, they are entitled, Islam the person who says that does not understand the abjadiyat the beginning of Islam to be honest the reason why I say that is because Islam is not only one rights that it looks at in every situation Islam looks at three rights simultaneously it looks at the right of Allah and it looks at your rights and then it looks at the rights of the people every ruling in Islam, look at it observe each situation it's your rights Allah's rights and the rights of the people around you say to me that homosexuals rights homosexuals rights, are we only going to abandon the rights of Allah are we going to abandon the rights of the community and the people around and only look at the rights of these, again, ill sick people who need help they need help, we should be feeling sorry for them and going out there and doing things for them, in order for them to come back from their ghayy and their balal instead we utilize them you see? I want to talk later on this podcast all about rights and activism, we're going to come to that inshallah but for now I have another question you have a person, a Muslim who has homosexual thoughts and tendencies but he doesn't act upon them is he sinning? if you have homosexual thoughts and you don't act upon it the Prophet s.a.w. said about that or any sins, Bukhari and Muslim both narrating the authority of Abu Huraira that the Prophet s.a.w. has said that Allah s.w.t. has forgiven a person if it's something that they whisper in their hearts it's just a thought in their heart and their mind they are not being punished for it as long as they do not act upon it or they don't verbalize it Ibn Hajar said he is a great scholar he commented on this hadith and he said that the negation here that's been negated is that as long as it doesn't that the action doesn't occur on the limbs or the tongue doesn't say something also if the person keeps thinking about it and they keep replaying it deliberately and then it becomes firm in their heart they also get sin for it which is just more than a thought that comes and you fight it if that thought you keep replaying it and then you try you let it trickle into you you get punished for it because of the hadith it mentioned hadith means you talk to yourself about it and you have to fight against that Ibn Hajar says Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Hadith Can I claim that? Yeah, if a person fights against a bad feeling that they have and they leave it off for the sake of Allah they get a reward for it So homosexual is not necessarily a bad position to be you get a lot of good deeds if you're fighting these desires would you agree with that? That's what I said to you, in Islam homosexual is not called a person who has thoughts in Islam homosexual is a person who does sexual penetration to the same gender, a male that's when Islam will call this Liwat, all of this is not considered Liwat if a person has a thought, it's just where in the West if someone touches you in a certain way you're like, are you gay? but according to the Quran and the Sunnah it's the action in which it looks at Ok, so what should a Muslim man do if he's having homosexual thoughts is he expected to completely rewire his feelings of attraction, me and you both agreed earlier that it's impossible for us to even imagine being homosexual for a day or is he meant to just leave marriage and attraction altogether and we obviously know marriage is a big part of the Sunnah, it almost feels like he's got no way out Alhamdulillah, I think in the beginning of the podcast we've kind of agreed and come to an agreement that homosexuality is an illness, it's something that needs help, it needs to be changed and rectified and if we put it under that category, then we would use the hadith of the Prophet ﷺ, Ahmad al-Abu Dawud narrated on the authority of Abu Darda that the Prophet ﷺ he said Allah has sent down cures وأنزل الداء and he also sent down illnesses سبحانه وتعالى وَجَعَلَ لِكُلِّ دَاءٍ دَوَاءً and Allah has made for every illness a cure فَتَدَاوَوا وَلَا تَدَاوَوا بِحَرَامٍ find a cure for it find a cure for the illness that you suffer from and don't cure yourselves with that which is haram one of the ways that a person can work on is the concept of patience and self-restraint restraining yourself resilience having control over yourself, disciplining yourself the Prophet ﷺ he said in the hadith Bukhari and Muslim both narrated وَمَنْ يَسْتَعْفِفْ يُعَفِّهِ اللَّهِ وَمَنْ يَسْتَغْنِي يُغْنِهِ اللَّهِ وَمَنْ يَتَصَبَّرْ يُصَبِّرْهُ اللَّهِ وَمَا أُعْطِي أَحَدٌ عَطَاءً خَيْرًا وَأُوسَعًا مِنَ الصَّبْرِ if a person comes with trust Allah will help them with the remaining anyone who becomes with patience Allah will help them and give them the patience that they need and that hadith mentions وَمَا أُعْطِي أَحَدٌ عَطَاءً خَيْرًا وَأُوسَعًا مِنَ الصَّبْرِ there is nothing given to a person better than patience also Allah ﷻ told us in the Quran وَالَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا فِينَا لَنَهْدِيَنَّهُمْ سُبُلَنَا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمَعَ الْمُحْسِنِينَ anyone who strives وَالَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا فِينَا anyone who strives in the cause of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ they fight to follow the commandments of Allah تَبَارَكُوا تَعَالَىٰ stay away from the prohibitions, you fight Allah says we will guide them سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ to that which is good for them and Allah is with those who are righteous and noble there is a situation that happened similar to that which many people suffer from in this issue of desires the companion Abu Umamah Al-Bahili he mentioned أَنَّ غُلَامًا شَابًا أَتَى النَّبِيَةِ صلى الله عليه وسلم a young boy came to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and he came to the Prophet يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِئْذَنْ لِي فِي الزِّنَاءِ allow me to commit Zina I want to do Zina I loved her, I want to do Zina I can't, this is too much for me, I want to do Zina فَصَاحَ النَّاسِ the people started to scream the Prophet then said to the people wait فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم he said to the man أَقِرُّوهُ أُذْنُ allow him to come in and tell him to come close فَدَنَا the man came and he sat next to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم right in front of him and the man said to the boy أَتُحِبُّهُ لِأُمِّكِ would you love someone to do Zina with your mother قال لا he said no وَذَلِكَ النَّاسِ the same as the people لَا يُحِبُّونَ لِأُمَّهَتِهِمْ they don't love this for their mother أَتُحِبُّهُ do you love it لِبْنَتِكَ for your daughter قال لا he said no وَكَذَلِكَ النَّاسِ the same as the people لَا يُحِبُّونَ لِبَنَاتِهِمْ the people wouldn't love that for their daughter someone to do Zina to their daughter أَتُحِبُّهُ لِأُخْتِكَ do you love this for your sister قال لا he said no وَكَذَلِكَ النَّاسِ the same as the people لَا يُحِبُّونَ لِأَخْوَاتِهِمْ they wouldn't love this for their sisters أَتُحِبُّهُ لِعَمَّتِكَ do you love this for your aunt قال لا he said no وَكَذَلِكَ النَّاسِ the same as the people لَا يُحِبُّونَ لِعَمَّتِهِمْ they do not love this لِعَمَّتِهِمْ to their aunties then the prophet said أَتُحِبُّهُ لِأَخْوَاتِكَ do you love this for your maternal aunt قال لا he said no وَكَذَلِكَ النَّاسِ the same as the people لَا يُحِبُّونَ لِأَخْوَاتِهِمْ then what the prophet did فَوَضَعَ رَسُولُ اللهِ يَدَهُ عَلَى صَدْرِهِ the prophet took his blessed hand and he placed it on the chest of that young boy and the messenger made dua for him اللهم كفِّر دنبه O Allah expiate for him his sins وَطَحِّرْ قَلْبَهُ purify his heart وَحَصِّنْ فَرْجَهُ and protect his private part Abu Ahmad narrated it in his Mu'ajaman Kabir the dua that the messenger made here صلى الله عليه وسلم is a summary of this issue that many people who have homosexual tendencies of this feeling that they can understand اللهم كفِّر دنبه O Allah expiate him for his sins and this feeling that you are feeling there were sins that brought it about وَطَحِّرْ قَلْبَهُ O Allah purify this young boy's heart the heart is important and it has a big role in our religion it is where Taqwa comes from and it is where all corruption can also come from وَحَصِّنْ فَرْجَهُ O Allah protect his private part for him that boy it left him that feeling and that urge had gone also duas that you can make there's people who have anger management issues these people might have homosexual tendencies the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم saw a man one day angry, excessively angry and then the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said إِنِّي لَأَعْلَمُ كَلِمَةَ لَوْقَى لَهَا I know a word if that this man was to say لَا ذَهَبَ عَنْهُ الَّذِي يَجِدُ this which he feels would go the rage that's in him would go the same as the sexual rage that's in you there's things that you can say that will let you also marriage even for someone that has homosexual tendencies the fitrah is what this person has corrupted to go and marry a woman and get married and work on yourself is that clear on the woman? what would be the problem with he's having homosexual tendencies he's getting married to a woman to try and correct himself but the poor woman is married to a man who is having homosexual thoughts maybe not desiring her is that really a viable solution? do you think it would I know this might sound very harsh and hard but does it really matter what he thinks in his mind he can just ignore that and you know in Islam a man might marry multiple wives and he loves one wife more than another for example he doesn't base his injustice towards neither of them he treats them both the same but he feels in his mind that's up to him he keeps it to himself does it really matter what you feel in your heart or mind the same applies with Umar seeing a man who spoke about marriage and love in a marriage and Umar corrected him and he said marriage doesn't necessarily have to be built on love sometimes it's bigger than just love it's respect it is someone who went through with you struggles of life and you have respect for the person you've got children in the picture other factors that Umar said that could be looked at however harsh that might sound he just has to be he has to be considerate to the partner he's with take care of her needs and what she wants and ask Allah for help and rectification with his struggle and his hard work and his effort Allah will not forsake someone who's really trying their best I want to ask another question now we've spoken a lot about homosexuality you've given some ample evidences we've talked about how it's not part of the fitrah, we've talked about how Islam is against it, my question is why does Islam in the first place care if someone is a homosexual, you almost have this religion which is ritualistic and then you have someone with their sexual preferences and to me the two opposite the Prophet said that Islam is built upon five fundamental pillars and I'm going to ask you some yes no questions all I want is a yes no can a homosexual man take the shahada for example can he pray? can he fast? can he pay zakat? can he perform hajj? in that case a homosexual man he can fulfill all of the five fundamental pillars that the messenger he actually said that this is what Islam is built upon what's the issue here? why can't you just leave his sexuality alone and let him live his life so I'm going to break your question into two the first one is why does Allah care about a person's sexuality Allah is the one who created you and I kind of touched on that point at the beginning of the podcast I said to you the one who created you, brought you into this world has the right to choose for you subhanAllah it's common sense and it's also evidence in the Quran and the Sunnah Allah is the one who chose your gender for you he's the one who chose your presence in this world and your color and what country you come from, he made all of those choices for you he doesn't have to consult you in your how the world should be run agreed but it doesn't mean that a person through these choices means his practicing of Islam is deficient as Allah says in the Quran he's asking the Prophet ﷺ to actually say this to the people everybody has been created upon their own ways and their own manners like you're explaining right now and your lord is most knowing about who is most guided to the path, doesn't that prove this ayah which I think is surah al-Isra ayah number 84, doesn't this prove that yes we've all been created differently but it doesn't affect our religion again coming back to the point where why does Allah care about our sexuality, it comes back to that point which is Allah is the one who created you Allah says I am the one who created you, you have no choice you have no choice I'm the one who passes the laws and the regulations if you go to America right now you need to follow the law of that country they set the rules in their boundaries and they say this is what is legal and this is what's illegal you go to Netherlands, weed is legal who are you to question this is their law you see so Allah is the king of all kings the owner of this universe, he controls it it's his, he doesn't have to consult you in it, he'll tell you this is right and this is wrong you need to submit and listen Allah clearly said it in the ayah Allah creates whatever he wishes and he chooses he does that he says in the Quran Allah is the exalted one who created partners he's the one who created it, he created the world and the vegetations and the fruits and how it's going to produce and the cycle for it he chose the ayah that you brought we need to reconcile it with these verses this ayah is talking about a similar as the Mufasireen mentioned Allah mentions whoever wants to believe, believe and whoever wants to disbelieve, disbelieve people are going to in this world Allah legislated and some people are just going to do what they want and Allah knows the one who's guided and already Allah told us the ones who are guided the ones who are guided are the ones who follow his commands and the ones who are misguided are the ones who go against his commands and do his prohibitions subhanahu wa ta'ala so bring those evidences together and reconcile between them also another point that you mentioned which is homosexuality if a person is homosexual he can do for example salah, shahada he can come and say the testimony of Islam he can pray the salah he can fast, he can give zakat he can do hajj what I want to say to you is that in Islam there is some things that render a person from being a Muslim you're no longer a Muslim anymore it nullifies your Islam in totality you're no longer a Muslim, you're not part of the Muslim community anymore and some crimes within Islam doesn't reach that level some crimes don't reach that level they don't take you out of the fold of Islam any crime in Islam goes back to one of two Ibn Al-Qayyim mentions he said it's either you either leave of a command that Allah set you or you do an act that you're prohibited from that's one way in which Ibn Al-Qayyim categorized it, there was a second way in which he categorized it and I want to point it out he says all of the sins that people commit are one of four he said there are dhunub, sins which are called dhunub which are al-malakiyah these sins which are known as al-malakiyah are the sins that come from people of authority, people of high level it's like the traits of Rabubiyah Rabubiyah, Allah's lordship they tend to try to take from Allah and try to give it to themselves such as al-'azama, al-kibriya, al-jabarood al-qahri, al-'uloo, al-istibaad al-khalq enslaving tyranny arrogance the hierarchy, I'm better than you that is called al-dhunub al-malakiyah not everybody is able to do that one because you have to have authority for it you have to be in power in order to get that one so many people don't have that one the second type is called al-dhunub al-shaytaniyah al-dhunub al-shaytaniyah it's the ones that a person is similar to what shaytan did shaytan had hasad and baghi and ghish and ghil animosity, jealousy evil jealousy to have in your heart deception and deceiving others these are or commanding other people to do sins and beautifying it for them making people stay away from obedience and making it look bad innovating in the religion calling to innovative things and misguidance these are called al-dhunub al-shaytaniyah it's what shaytan does and loves and it's the hasad that he had for Adam when he was told to prostrate for Adam and the hasad that he has for the children of Adam there's a third type of sins which is called al-dhunub al-sabu'iyah al-sabu'iyah these dhunub which are known as al-sabu'iyah are sins where the person is very he's similar to the animals like the lion those type of animals and those are the ones that the person is angry murdering for example these are taken from animals similar from the animals last but not least this is the one the majority of the children of Adam fall into the other ones not everybody is inclined to doing it it stays in a lot of people's hearts but it doesn't generally become an action a person does, it's jealousy in the heart like in this one al-dhunub al-bahimiyah in which you called it this one is problematic which is the person is concerned with their private part and their stomach it's just eat fulfill your desires zina comes from this one stealing wealth comes from this one eating the wealth of the orphans comes under this one stinginess falls under this one cowardness falls under this one the person is scared because all he wants to protect is his stomach and what he eats so what you're saying right now one sin should not dismiss another sin it just falls under another type of category a person can be homosexual so he's doing al-dhunub al-bahimiyah but there are other sins like al-dhunub al-sabu'iyah that other people are doing and there are sins which are dhunub shaytaniyah that some people do we're not saying in any way shape or form that a person who is homosexual is not a Muslim your argument would stand in that regard we're not saying he's a disbeliever he can pray the salah, he can fast he's still a Muslim but this act of his is a sin, just the same way if a person murders another person he's still a Muslim there is a difference murder, you can see that's causing harm to someone this homosexual he's just fulfilling his desires he's not causing harm to anybody like this what is the wisdom behind it being prohibited that's my point you hit the nail on the head and that is homosexuality is actually not just only is the person harming himself, he's harming the people around him homosexuality research has shown and also in our textual evidences that increases illnesses and sicknesses in the community illnesses are introduced into the community and the society that he's spreading from this act of his not only that he's destroying a person's life a person had for example, a wife had a partner this guy is attracting him trying to get his attention, he's homosexual so he sees a guy he likes the guy isn't homosexual necessarily, he talks to him gets to know him, tells him that he's homosexual this is a movement right now to get people from being heterosexual to becoming homosexual, that falls under our arguments, you're destroying people's marriages, you're destroying you're bringing about the Rukubah and the punishment of Allah that he sent to the people of Lord is going to come down on us, if this kind of act carries on, so what I said to you is every sin in the religion it's an infringement on one of those three rights he's harming himself number one mentally he's harming himself physically he's harming himself and the stories of people complaining about the kind of depression that they're in and etc hadith wala haraj because the fitrah is fighting back even though it's been weakened and it's been beaten and hit you're fighting back also the people around you, you're harming and you're harming the people around you murdering is a harm and also homosexuality every sin in Islam it hits, it goes against the three rights that you were given you're right, murder means you're taking a person's life ok you're taking someone's Nafs here you're taking someone's Irdh Onah and they are from the Daruriyatul Khamsa, the concept of sexuality and homosexuality it falls under Irdh Onah this falls under blood I'm just saying why do people choose any argument for homosexuality in reality should be an argument for murdering it should be the same argument for any other sin out there throughout this discussion you brought many evidences to support your argument, primarily from the Quran however, there's an ayah that comes to my mind that almost goes against your entire argument from beginning to end and that is the ayah there is no compulsion in religion there is no compulsion in religion if there's no compulsion in your choice of religion which of course we'd agree is more important than your choice of sexuality, would you agree on that? if there's no compulsion in this then how can you sit here and say that there's compulsion in your choice of sexuality so the ayah that you're talking about it's an ayah that many people use they use it for so many things whenever they something is laa ikraha fi ddeen so it's like they can get out of anything they want by just using the ayah laa ikraha fi ddeen a simple response to the ayah is that the ayah has a sababun nuzul, a reason why it came down and this really gives a context and an understanding to it so let's take the sababun nuzul the reason of why it descended the reason why the verse came down what context did the verse come down on and then inshallah ta'ala we can take from there a response to your question Abu Dawood in his sunnah he narrated on the authority of Ibn Abbas may Allah be pleased with him and his father that the Prophet s.a.w. said كانت المرأة تكون مقلاة كانت المرأة تكون مقلاة a woman at the time of the Prophet s.a.w. or before Islam she would have she would lose a child when she would lose a child فَتَجْعَلُ عَلَى نَفْسِهَا إِنْ عَاشَ لَهَا وَلَدٌ أَن تُهَوِّدَهُ she would make a promise if her child lives and nothing happens to him that this child she will make him into a Jew فَلَمَّ أُجْلِيَتْ بَنُ النَّظِيرِ فَلَمَّ أُجْلِيَتْ بَنُ النَّظِيرِ when the Prophet s.a.w. he took the people of Banu Nadhir out of the city of Medina كان فيه من أبناء أنصار the children of Ansar that made the covenant before the Prophet came some of the children were with Banu Nadhir as Jews so they said فَقَالُوا لَا نَدَعُوا أَبَنَاءَنَا we are not going to leave our children to go with these Jews we are going to go and pick up our children from them and our children can become Muslims with you O Messenger of Allah then the Prophet s.a.w. came down on him which is لا إِقْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَدْ تَبَيَّنُ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ that there is no compulsion in religion the truth has become a claim from the falsehood Abu Dawood explained what the word المقلات means التي لا يعيش لها ولد the point I want to come to here is this was something that was set before Islam came in other words these people they made a covenant and a promise that they would let their children be with the Jews raised by the Jews to be upon the religion of the Jews if their children live for them and if Allah doesn't give her miscarriage or anything and those children grew up with the Jews when Banu Nadhir were kicked out they said oh we want our children back and when they said they want their children back they wanted to force their children to become some of them are big men now they wanted to make them into Islam and the ayah says لا إِقْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ what does this benefit us? it benefits us that there is no compulsion of bringing someone into Islam forcefully okay someone is a non-Muslim say you have to become a Muslim or else لا إِقْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَدْ تَبَيَّنُ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ لا إِقْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ once a person is inside Islam it's a must for him to adhere to the commandments of Islam from the things you're not allowed to leave anymore you have to stay within the religion also what you can't do is these acts rules and regulations just like you're in American soil, you're in Britain behind these borders we've got the command these you can do, if you leave it's your choice before you come you've got what you have choices of what you want to do, once you come into the border you have no choice anymore, the government and system tell you what you can and can't do you can't drive through red lights you can't just drive on whatever side of the road you want so Islam is like that there are do's and there's don'ts that everyone has to adhere as a Muslim from those things that we have to adhere to is homosexuality homosexuality is an act that we're not allowed to do Islam looks at it as what? an abhorrent act evil act and so we should stay away from it so using the ayah of is it's placing the ayah not in it's right place you're utilizing the verse or you're trying to use the ayah in a wrong position or a wrong place, in that case I would assume that in the Quran there would be an ayah that says that Islam has to be Islam or nothing else everybody has to understand that the true religion that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is going to accept his own Islam that's the only accepted religion on this earth Allah says in the Quran Allah mentions that anyone who looks for a religion and to take something as a religion other than Islam, Allah will not accept it from them also Allah says in the ayah the religion that Allah considers it to be the true religion is Islam and I am pleased for Islam to be your religion and the Prophet ﷺ was commanded to call the people of the scripture come to Islam call them and invite them to Islam so Islam is the true religion but Islam is not we're not imposing on every single person to come into Islam because the ayah at the end it says your nafs is already going to be inclined to when you study what Islam is it's clear, Islam guides Islam serves you in that which is good, Islam brings for you prosperity and happiness, through Islam you're going to get all of that. Okay before we come to the end of our discussion on the rulings surrounding homosexuality and before we move on to political activism and gay rights, I want to revisit the conversation about the punishment for homosexuality you said earlier that the punishment for homosexuality is essentially the death penalty. Is this agreed upon by, like, is this consensus between all of the scholars in Islam? What I said to you before was that there's a hadith of the Prophet ﷺ where he spoke about the ruling for the homosexuality.
The Messenger ﷺ he said مَنْ وَجَدْتُمُوهُ يَعْمَلُ عَمَلَ قَوْمَ لُوطٍ anyone you find doing the act of the people of Lot, homosexuality, homosexual activities فَقْتُلُوا the hadith says فَقْتُلُوا kill الفَاعِلَ وَالْمَفْعُلَ بِهِ the Islamic court will take the matter, revise it look at it, that it really happened and then this person will be executed now this is not an issue that the صحابة رضوان الله عليهم أجمعين the sahabas may Allah be pleased with them, disputed amongst themselves, they unanimously صحابة رسول الله يعني all of the companions, not one of them, went against the idea of there being a capital punishment for the person who commits who does homosexual activity, whether it be the one who done it or the one it's been done to, both of them should be killed and of course the sahaba, the companions are not with us today, but generally when we look at issue of fiqh, we have the four schools of thoughts, and some may add in the fifth, the ظاهرية, into that as well are all the four schools of thought agreed upon this, including the احناف, the خنفية for example and the ظاهرية if you want to include the fifth so there was a transmission from the مذهب الحنفية and the ظاهرية and there's a قول صريح from ابن حزم, that there is no, just so you know within the شافعية belief, that there is a punishment the حنبلية believe there is a punishment and the مالكية believe there is a punishment okay some of them now, like the حنفية they believe it's not a capital punishment, the حنفية is not death, but they believe there is a تعزير, there is no حد but there is تعزير which means he should be either imprisoned, fined, or something whatever the leader sees it to be fiqh he'll do ابن حزم on the other hand, and the مذهب الظاهرية especially ابن حزم, his كلام صريح he says that there's nothing upon it لا تعزير ولا حد there's no punishment in any way shape or form he's not saying that the act is fine he's not saying the act is fine he's just saying that this act hasn't got a punishment for it, ابن حزم but here we have to understand is that, if we find contradicting statements or we find some scholars say something and some say something else we have to understand who is it a valid difference of opinion because a valid difference of opinion is when both parties have strong evidences they've and it's how should this evidence be understood but if we have a group who have evidence and the other group don't have evidences who do we follow? we follow the group that have evidences we have a حديث which is صريح, أحمد narrated it أبو داود تلميذ ابن ماجن نصائف they all narrated it and it's in the it's an authentic حديث where the Prophet said من وجد تموه anyone you find يعمل عمل قوم لوطن فقتل الفاعل والمفعول به the Prophet instructing عليه الصلاة والسلام that the Muslim leader should take it upon himself to execute this person who's committing homosexual activities or homosexual act when there comes a scholar and says no that shouldn't be done, we'll say قوله تعالى the statement of Allah follow that which has come to you from your Lord ولا تتبعوا من دنيا أولياء and don't follow the أولياء besides Allah سبحانه و تعالى and his Messenger so we saw to Imam Abu Harifa رحمك الله may Allah have mercy upon you you're a great Imam but this issue we have a نص and if he knew of this evidence he would not have gave that verdict and the one who knows is a proof against the one who doesn't know as the scholars say من عارف حجة على من لم يعلم the one who knows is a proof onto the one who doesn't know then we have the Sahaba's understanding on this hadith which is a unanimous consensus that this is capital punishment it's death, it's not تعزير حتى قتل is what they all agreed upon no one has any rights no constitution has any right no government has any right no organizations or individuals can come after that and say no times have changed rulings must change we don't believe in that we believe this religion was set down إِلَىٰ عَيَنِ طَلَّهُ الْأَرْضَ وَمَنْ عَلَيْهَا it was sent out was set until the day of judgment that is good on the assumption that in the hadith that you just mentioned that the Prophet ﷺ when he actually specifically mentioned the action of the people of Lut he's talking about homosexuality which brings me to my next question if the people of Lut were destroyed for homosexuality then why was his wife the wife of Lut why was she destroyed why was the entire community destroyed which I assume includes children, women, everybody destroyed how do you answer that one Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى He told us about this particular situation of the destroying of the people of Lut Allah says in the Qur'an فَمَا خَطْبُكُمْ أَيُّهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ قَالُوا إِنَّ أُرْسِلْنَا إِلَىٰ قَوْمٍ مُجْرِمِينَ لِنُرْسِلَ عَلَيْهِمْ حِجَارَةً مِّنْ طِيدٍ مُسَوَّمَةً عِندَ رَبِّكَ لِلْمُسْرِفِينَ So the punishment Allah says it was marked for the wrongdoers Allah then says فَأَخْرَجْنَا مَنْ كَانَ فِيهَا مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَمَا وَجَدْنَا فِيهَا غَيْرَ بَيْتٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ فَمَا وَجَدْنَا فِيهَا غَيْرَ بَيْتٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ Allah took out all the righteous people out of the village the noble people were gone and the ones who were destroyed and were commanded to be destroyed were the مُجْرِمِينَ the criminals as Allah said وَقَالُوا إِنَّا أُرْسِلْنَا إِلَىٰ قَوْمٍ مُجْرِمِينَ وَقَالُوا إِنَّا أُرْسِلْنَا إِلَىٰ قَوْمٍ مُجْرِمِينَ We were sent to a criminal Was their crime only homosexuality? That's what they were punished for That's what the whole situation took place when the angels came and they visited them the siyak of the ayat and everything mentions that the reason for their punishment was this now that's one response these people were punished because they were مُجْرِمِين wrongdoers they were having sexual intercourse with their men and not the women this was the first one the second answer I want to give you is that when the punishment of Allah comes it's not restricted only to the criminals Allah's punishment سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ it encompasses everybody Allah says in the Quran first of all وَاتَّقُوا فِتْنَةً لَا تُصِيبَنَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْكُمْ خَاصَةً وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابُ Allah says وَاتَّقُوا فِتْنَةً fear the fitna لَا تُصِيبَنَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْكُمْ خَاصَةً that won't be only to your wrongdoers and your criminals it's not خاص to just the criminals Allah then says وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابُ also the Prophet ﷺ in the hadith of Imam al-Bukhari and Muslim both narrated our mother Zainaba bt Jahshin she said that the Messenger ﷺ he woke up and some of the words he said he entered فَزَعًا and he was terrified and the Prophet ﷺ was saying لا إله إلا الله وَيْلٌ لِّلْعَرَبْ مِنْ شَرٍّ قَدِقَتَرَبْ فُتِحَ لِيَوْمٍ مِنْ رَضْمِ يَأْجُجُ وَمَعْجُجُ مِثْلَ هَذِهِ the Prophet ﷺ he said well be to the Arabs because they were the only Muslims in that day but that's general for everybody an evil that has come close the wall of يَأْجُجُ وَمَعْجُجُ a portion of it was open then our mother Zaynabah bint Jahshin she said to the Prophet ﷺ أَنَاهْ لِقُوا وَفِيْنَا الصَّالِحُونَ are we going to be destroyed and amongst us are righteous people the Prophet ﷺ said نعم إِذَا كَثُرَ الْخَبُّثِ if the evil becomes a lot yes in another hadith which answers the question you just asked me now in Imam Bukhari and Muslim both narrated the wording is the wording of Imam Bukhari our mother Aisha radiallahu ta'ala and also Imam al-Nawawi mentions it in Riyad al-Salihin he used it under the chaptering of sincerity and ikhlas the Prophet ﷺ he said يَغْزُوا جَيْشَ الْكَعْبَةِ an army is going to want to destroy the Kaaba فَإِذَا كَانُوا بِبَيْدَاءَ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ when they are all this is something that's going to happen before the hour, when they are all in that land Allah wants to destroy them in يُخْسَفُ بِأَوَّلِهِمْ وَآخِرِهِمْ the first of them and the last of them will be destroyed Aisha then she said يا رسول الله كيف يُخْسَفُ بِأَوَّلِهِمْ وَآخِرِهِمْ how is Allah going to destroy the first of the army and the ending of the army وَفِيهِمْ أَسْوَاقُمْ and in there there is the markets وَمَنْ لَيْسَ مِنْهُمْ and people who are not with them are also there how is that going to happen? the Prophet ﷺ said يُخْسَفُ بِأَوَّلِهِمْ وَآخِرِهِمْ Allah is going to destroy them all with those people who are around with the markets ثُمَّ يُبْعَثُونَ عَلَىٰ نِيَتِيمِ Allah will resurrect everybody with their intention there are reasons why Allah destroys people together and one of the reasons is نَعَمْ إِذَا كَثُرَ الْخَبَثِ if the evil becomes a lot if the people don't stop the evil and we don't prohibit the evil that we see يُوشِكُ اللَّهُ أَن يُعُمَّكُمْ بِعَذَابٍ مِّنْهُ a punishment from Allah will be sent a punishment from Allah will be sent when we see a person do something evil a person commit a crime it is upon us to stop that person from doing it or else the punishment that's going to come is going to encompass us all stay around those ayats that you are mentioning about the people of Lut when they were destroyed Allah says أَإِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةً مِنْ دُونِ نِسَاءً بَلْ أَنْتُمْ قَوْمُ مُسْرِفُونَ I really want to deconstruct this the ayah begins with a hamza and correct me if I'm wrong but this is a hamza tul istifham it's a question أَإِنَّكُمْ are you a people that approach men with your desires instead of women then Allah answers the question He says بَلْ and we know at least I know from where I can bring another example in the Quran, when Allah asks a question with hamza tul istifham, this questioning hamza and then answers it with بَلْ it means the answer is no for example Allah says أَإِنَّكُمْ مَعَ اللَّهِ is there another god besides Allah بَلْ Allah says no there's not another god besides Allah therefore doesn't this prove that when Allah is asking the question do these people approach men like you're claiming, that Allah himself is saying no they don't, He says بَلْ but He still says that you're transgressing people for other sins, maybe rape maybe theft, maybe other sins that are widespread, but the main point of my argument here is that the بَلْ used here means they do not commit homosexual acts the ayah that you recited أَإِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ أَإِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ there's another قراءة that حفظ النافع recited where instead of أَإِنَّكُمْ it's أَإِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ and this changes, it's a paradigm shift, it changes the whole argument of yours which is أَإِنَّكُمْ makes it a استفهام an interrogative it makes it a question but أَإِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ makes it a خَبَر a statement وَلِذَٰلِكَ الْإِمَامُ الشَّاطِبِيُّ رَحِيمُ اللَّهُ مَنْشِنْسُ It's not an istighfham in all recitations. Then why would Allah say bal? Why is he answering for something that isn't a question? It's an affirmative. Allah Ta'ala He's saying rather instead of what you said no, but here now it becomes with the khabar, it becomes rather you guys are a corrupt.
Rather is just another way of saying no. No, it's affirming no means, or nay means negation. You're negating something but rather you could be affirming for example, if you're saying to someone, are you a liar? and then you turn and say, rather you're the biggest liar I've ever met.
That means you're negating. I'm not negating I'm building on it more harder this time. Oh, I see, because it's not a question it's a statement.
It's a statement, yes. Okay, fine. It affirms that the problem here was men approaching men, and that's why the word rijal is used in this ayah.
It doesn't, however, and nothing you have said so far, as far as I'm aware affirm that there is an issue between women having relations with women. You can't use this ayah for that obvious reason. Does that mean Islam is okay with female to female relations? The homosexuality that which happens between two men is definitely not the same as what happens between two women from many perspectives.
Ruling-wise, we'll come to it, inshallah ta'ala. Men, in the sharia there's a concept of penetration. And within women that concept doesn't exist.
So, that which is worse was stated. And it was an act that was done by a group of people, a community committed. But the Quran in its general prohibitions, it mentioned, stay away from the concept of being lesbians.
Allah says in the Quran, Prosperity and successes for the believers. Who are they? Those who come with humility in their prayer. And they are the ones who turn away from idle speech.
And they are the ones who give their wealth in zakat. وَالَّذِينَهُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ And those who safeguard their private parts. Ponder here now.
We're told that they safeguard their private parts, they protect their private parts. Now it's stated who they use it for. إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ For their partner.
أَوْمَ مَلَكَةَ أَيْمَانُهُمْ Or that which their right hand possessed. فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ The ayah then says فَمَنِبَ تَغَا وَرَاءَ ذَلِكَ And anyone who chooses to fulfill sexual desires or not protect their private part from other than that which was stated فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُوا لَعَادُونَ That which was used for the people of the Lord was also used here. They are transgressive people.
They've exceeded their limits. So the ayahs mention, and this is the asr in our religion وَالْأَصْلُ فِي الْأَبْضَاعِ Abda'a is the private part. It's Hurma.
Your private part The asr is you can't use it except that which the sharia permitted for you. Let me give a specific evidence. Abu Sa'id al-Khudri narrated that the Prophet ﷺ He said, لَا يَنظُرُ الرَّجُلُ إِلَىٰ عَوْرَةِ الرَّجُلِ A man should not look at the private part of another man.
وَلَا الْمَرْءَةُ إِلَىٰ عَوْرَةِ And a woman should not look at the awrah of another woman. وَلَا يُفْضِي الرَّجُلُ إِلَىٰ الرَّجُلِ فِي ثَوْبٍ وَاحِدٍ And a man should not tuck into the same cloth with another man. They should not use the same sheet.
Both of them. وَلَا تُفْضِي الْمَرْءَةُ إِلَىٰ الْمَرْءَةِ فِي ثَوْبٍ وَاحِدٍ And a woman should also share with another woman one and he can see the same. What's being said for the men is said for the women.
So she can't see the private part. Of course she can't have sexual intercourse. Also al-Imam al-Mundiri narrated in his تَرْغِيبُ وَالتَّرْهِيبُ on the authority of Anas ibn Malik with an authentic chain of narration that the Prophet ﷺ said إِذَا اسْتَحَلَّتْ أُمَّتِي خَمْسًا If my ummah make permissible for themselves five things فَعَلَيْهِمُ الدَّمَارُ Destruction will come their way.
إِذَا ظَهَرَ If it becomes apparent amongst them التَّلَعُ وَشَرِبُ الْخُمُورَ And they drink the alcohol. وَلَبِسُوا الْحَرِيرَ And they wear silk for the men. وَاتَّخَذُوا الْقَيْنَاتِ And they take women that will sing for them.
وَاكْتَفَ الرِّجَالُ بِالرِّجَالِ And men become sufficed with men. وَالنِّسَاءُ بِالنِّسَاءِ And women become sufficed with women. When these things take place الله سبحانه وتعالى's destruction will come.
Okay, I think it's been a very fruitful discussion so far and we talked about a lot of different points and you quite comprehensively showed that homosexuality, whether it be male, male, female, female is not permissible in the religion of Islam. And you brought your evidences for that. My next question is, if that's the case then how should we as Muslims view gay people? You've already made it clear that it's not upon us to take the law into our own hands and enforce the punishment.
But, are we entitled to have some kind of hatred for these kind of people, for the abhorrent sins that they're committing? You see, the concept of a person committing a sin we divide the people into two. There are people who commit a sin and they're very remorseful for committing the sin. They commit something very evil in Islam.
And they're very remorseful of what they committed. For example, a brother might go and commit Zina, for example. And he's very remorseful of what he did.
When you speak to him he cries, he's very emotional. In that situation, what we say is we hate the sin, not the sinner. Because this person is very remorseful of his act.
But he's falling into it again tomorrow, but he's remorseful. And the hellfire is taking him and he doesn't justify this. He knows it's wrong.
That type of person we would say we hate the sin, not the sinner. But there's someone who's champion for the sin. And he's arguing for it.
Trying to bring out Tabrilat and excuses and explanations for it. He's very stubborn when you talk to them. They're arrogant, full of themselves.
They say, who gave Allah the rights to question my homosexuality tendencies? Who is He? Why does He have the rights? People like that, we say we hate the sin and the sinner, simultaneously. And the evidence for that was and Imam Ahmad narrated that there was a man who at the time of the Prophet ﷺ he used to drink khamar. But he used to also love the Prophet ﷺ. He loved the Prophet.
And he used to also, he was addicted to alcohol. Couldn't stop himself from it. His nafs was very weak.
He always drank it. And he'd always get punishment for it. And he would keep going back and forth.
So the Sahabas got angry with him. Every time you're being, don't you learn a lesson? So they spoke in a harsh way regarding him. And the Messenger ﷺ he said لا تقولوا هكذا.
Don't say this. This is the wording of Imam Ahmad. Don't say that about him.
Don't say that to him. لا تعينوا عليه الشيطان. Because they cursed him and the Prophet ﷺ made dua against him.
So the Prophet ﷺ he said, don't do that. Don't aid your brother against Shaytan. But rather what you should say to him is رحمت الله.
May Allah have mercy on you. Also Abu Dawood narrated in his Kitab al-Zuhud عن أبي قلابة he was a student of Ibn Abbas. أنه قال he said مر على أبي درداء برجل يقاد في حد أصابه A man who came by the noble companion Abu Darda.
And this man a punishment for his sin that he did. The people as he was going, they took their shoes off and they did things to him. They hit him.
And they insulted him. فنال منه can encompass all of that but from the context it seems like they insulted him. They said things about him that were not nice and pleasant.
فقال he said لا تصبوا أخاكم. Abu Darda said don't insult your brother. و أحمد الله الذي أعفاكم.
Praise Allah تبارك وتعالى for the cure he has brought you. قال أرأيتم لو رأيتموه في قليب. He said how about لو رأيتموه if you were to see this man في قليب he was to fall into a well.
أكنتم مستخرجي. Would you bring him out? Would you save this man? قالوا نعم. They said yes we would.
Then he said فلا تصبوا أخاكم. Then no insult your brother. و أحمد الله Praise Allah الذي أعفاكم and that which he has cured you from.
فقيل then it was said to Abu Darda. They turned to Abu Darda and they said to him أتبغضه do you hate this man? قاله he said إني لا أبغضه I don't hate him. و لكن أبغض عمله but rather what I hate is his actions.
فإذا تركه كان أخي. If he leaves off it, he is my brother. So if a person commits a sin we don't always say that we hate the sin and we don't hate the sinner.
In some situations we hate the sin and the sinner because of the person's position and the things that he is doing about the sin that he is falling into. و لذلك if the person is doing the sin out in the open sometimes harsh positions will be taken against him. Shaykh Al-Islam Al-Taymiyyah he mentions if a person comes out and does sins in the open وَجَبَ الْإِنْكَارُ عَلَيْهِ عَلَانِيَةً then the mistake that he has done has to be stopped and spoken about in public.
وَلَمْ يَبْقَ لَهُ غِيْبَةٌ Like no concept of backbiting is left for him. وَجَبَ الْإِنْكَارُ عَلَانِيَةً He should be punished in the open and everybody should know this man's reality because he is doing this in public. He is coming out.
He is not a hidden problem of his. He is out in the open. Ibn Taymiyyah even wanted to say he would even be boycotted فَلَا يُسَلَّمُ عَلَيْهِ No one is going to give him salams.
وَلَا يُرَدُّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامِ No one is going to respond to his salams. إِذَا كَانَ الْفَاعِلُ دَلِكَ مُتَمَكِّنًا مِنْ دَلِكَ مِنْ غَيْرِ مَفْسَدَةٍ رَاجِحَةٍ وَيَبَغِ لِأَهْلِ الْخَيْرِ وَالدِّينِ أَنْ يَهْجُرُوهُ مَيِّتًا كَمَا هَجَرُوهُ حَيًّا The righteous people and the noble people should also boycott him when he dies. يعني تشجيع جنازته Taking his body to the grave, they should boycott that.
As they have boycotted him when he was alive. Why is that all? إِذَا كَانَ فِي ذَلِكَ إِذَا كَفُّوا لِأَمْثَالِهِ مِنَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ If by this we will stop him his action that he's just done with the other people we're worried for the other people he might have influence in his actions when the other people see the consequences of his action and how he was dealt with they might say, I don't want to be dealt with like that. So it depends on the person.
Some brothers they are like we hate the sin not the sinner in every situation extreme in that way and there are also other group of brothers who always are saying we hate the sinner regardless and not the other sin as well. The truth is in the middle. And that means you have to hate everybody because the Prophet says and referred to every Muslim as a what? Everybody as a sinner.
So you have to hate every person you meet because there is not a person you've met except that he commits sins. Or there are sins that he falls into or he has fallen into. So you mentioned one of the instances where we actually hate the sin and the sinner is if the person who's committed the sin is actually advocating for it and supporting it and pushing it forward which brings me on to my next topic a huge movement that we see across the world right now particularly in the West is the movement of LGBTQ rights, the rights for gay marriage for example.
What is our position as Muslims who may be living in the West for example when we see this going on around us what is our stance towards it? Can we help them? Can we support them? Can we not? We're in the West. We live in a country where you know we stay in a country where they believe that these are their, they've written this for them as their liberal rights and you know what we say or what we believe in our scripture they don't care about it. All they believe is this is rights we've given them and these people are free to do what they want act in whatever way they want so Islam in this situation we are people who come into these countries as we came into this country with a visa originally finally we became citizens of this country.
They have their written laws we're not here in any way shape or form to impose on them our ideology and our belief system even though we believe our religion is the truth and it's pleasing to Allah we know that this is what they don't practice and we know that this is what they are not inclined to so we're not here to impose our belief on them as much as we believe if an ideal Islamic state was built this is what would be done an Islamic country an Islamic state, an Islamic system, this is what would be implemented regarding the homosexuals. Now that we're in their countries, we have to live with it but we don't have to necessarily work with them this is where I draw the line if they want to practice what they want to practice لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينُ you have this, you like you want to do it it's your choice, you've chosen it Can't you see how short term that approach is and how it's actually going to harm the Muslims in the future and I'll tell you why the people who are advocating for gay rights are a minority, they're still a minority in the West Muslims are also a minority in the West and the people advocating for gay rights are actually just advocating for freedom we need that freedom, you've seen in France for example the Niqab has been banned soon in the West they're going to ban the prayer fasting, we've seen it across the world in other places in the world if we don't support them in this initiative forget about gay rights, it's an initiative to allow freedom, then if we don't support them in that it's going to come back to us where our rights are going to be restricted as well, living as a minority in the West and it's going to cause a great deal of harm amongst the Muslims I understand your concern, I don't deny the fact that you're concerned for the Muslims and their existence in the West but I believe one of two either the Muslims are able to live by their religious values and hold on to their Deen in these Western countries and so they can live in these Western countries Islamically they're allowed to stay in this country and if they're not able to implement their religion, they're not allowed to practice their religion, in no way shape or form is it allowed for anyone to stay in a country where he can't implement his religion, scholars they mentioned a concept known as Hijrah migrating now Hijrah is three types there's Hijrah of bad actions which we spoke about through the podcast which is boycotting and staying away from evil action, homosexuality we need to stay away from it Zina we need to stay away from it drinking alcohol and fornication we need to stay away from that, that's Hijrah of bad action there's a second type of Hijrah which is Hijrah of leaving and migrating migrating from the land where evil is being implemented and the third one which is Hijrah to Ashabi Su, leaving and boycotting and staying away from people who are evil, those three are what Hijrah is generally like in the word Hijrah generally is used from leaving the land of the disbelievers to the land of the believers scholars they say it's Wajib, Hijrah is Wajib when there are two conditions met the first condition is the person is unable to implement his religion the person can't manifest his religion, the second one is if the person has the ability he can leave the land of the disbelievers what does it really mean to implement your religion now does it mean I have to implement my religion scholars they mention too it is that the person can manifest in the open their prayer, their Adhan and their Salah and their Siyam and that's Alhamdulillah something we have to be honest we can't do in western countries, people can fast people can pray even some places Alhamdulillah the Adhan is loud you can even hear it Alhamdulillah the second one is that I can speak against the falsehood that opposes my religion, I can on Friday of Khutbatul Jumaa on the Friday pulpit in the Masajid, in my Halakat I can speak about what I believe to be wrong, for example I can condemn homosexuals I can condemn people committing Zina, adultery and fornication I can condemn anything that goes against my religion, if I can do those, if those two are missing from me I can't speak about their values and what they hold on to and they're preventing me from that and they're saying you can't be careful if you do or they are not letting me proclaim my symbols of Islam, come out there and show it they're preventing us from going to the Eid Salah, they're not letting us, they're banning the Salah they're banning this and banning that then many great scholars like Abdul Latif and Ishaq both of them are the son of Abdul Rahman Ibn Hasan and they're also Hamad Ibn Ateeq and Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Sheikh Abdul Rahman Nasir Al-Saudi great Imams of Islam, they mention that their people have to migrate there's a Ayah in the Quran where Allah says Inna Al-Ladhina Tawafahumu Al-Malaikatu Dhalimi Anfus Qalu Fima Kuntum Qalu Kunna Mustad'afina Fil-Ardi Qalu Alam Takun Ardu Allahi Wasim Fatufahajiru Fiha Fawlaika Ba'uwaahum Jannam Wasa'atun Masira If you were da'eef in the earth why did you travel? Alam Takun Ardu Allahi Wasi' Wasn't the land of Allah Ta'ala not vast? And sad enough, I'll tell you the truth many of these people who speak like this are originally Pakistanis, Somalis from India from Arab countries just pack your bag, go to your own country and there's an argument for the reverts, the white reverts who have taken Islam, who this is their country originally, have no other place no one's welcoming them into their country maybe that can be studied and looked into but a Pakistani of origin and a Somali of origin, just pack your bag, go home, khalas, your religion is under attack or are you going to stay for darahim and dirham? So I know we're going to talk about this in a future episode inshallah, but we're going to talk about this in a lot more detail about hijrah, is it obligatory or not but I want to restrict this now to this conversation because we also both agree that there is inevitably, like you just said, for example the revert community, there is going to be some people with millions and millions of people Muslims in the west right now, there's going to be some of them who can't, they don't have the qudrat, they don't have the ability to make hijrah they have to stay there, they're an exception so they have to stay there, so I'm talking about these people now, for example, how do they navigate through gay rights, you said we shouldn't support them. You know what's actually really, really took me back while I was doing this research and looking at it looking at it I looked at the story of Lord Alayhis Salaam and to be honest, I wanted to study it.
Lord Alayhis Salaam was propagating people to be heterosexual he was arguing against, debating challenging the notion and the narrative of homosexuality what's shocking is Lord had to do hijrah Allah Ta'ala He says قَالُوا يَا لُوْتُ إِنَّ رُسُولُ رَبِّكَ لَيُحْصِلُ إِلَيْكَ فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطَعٍ مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ وَلَا يَلْتَفِتْ مِنْكُمْ أَحَدٌ إِلَّا مِرَآتَكَ My great leave these people are going to be destroyed Allah is coming to them, go separating him from them and then they got destroyed, Allah destroyed him Allah Ta'ala He said وَلَا يَلْتَفِتْ مِنْكُمْ أَحَدٌ إِلَّا مِرَآتَكَ إِنَّهُ مُصِيبُهَا مَا أَصَابَهُمْ إِنَّ مَوْعِدُكُمُ الصُّبْحَ لَيْسَ الصُّبْحُ بِقَرِيبٍ so the ayah clearly says فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ بِقِطَعٍ مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ travel and leave the land we don't want to fight with the people we don't have to speak against them in their land if they don't want us to they have every right to say don't talk about this in our country, it's our land honestly, for me personally, I'll be honest with you, I get very shocked when I see Muslims who force themselves on the people who clearly told you, bro these are our values you like it, follow it you don't like it, hit the road and still we argue where are you and you are us and we're one or the other I'm not disputing that at least I'm not disputing that yet we're going to go into another episode where I probably will dispute that but right now, we have to agree it's not a practical solution for everybody and if it's not a practical solution for everybody let's talk to those people who it's not a practical solution for, they're living in a land where people are politically involved in activism for supporting gay rights you said they're not allowed to get involved, I don't in any way shape or form I took time out to really look and study the arguments those people bring really, I want to relate with them, I honestly do, I want to see their side of the argument and why they believe that LGBT rights, we have to support it and it's a common goal that we all have of course it is freedom but I just said to you before, freedom only by looking at it as freedom only from one perspective from one angle only looking at your rights your rights to practice the religion, like you said, if that's not there, then what have we got in the west Alhamdulillah, we have that right now, like you said we have the ability to practice our religion imagine if we don't support them in their right for freedom, in their freedom of choice and then our freedom of choice gets taken away I give them their rights where is the right of Allah I took away you don't have to take the rights of Allah, that's my point I tell you why, I've got a perfect solution for you you categorically say Allah does not like this, this is wrong, this is evil but I support your right to it, just like the statement we don't support their right to it, but that's what I'm saying in our religion we don't you know you're contradicting yourself by saying, because the homosexual is going to look at you and say you're a minority and I'm also a minority, we're both a minority in this struggle I don't condemn you, believe what you want, do what you want and I'm fine with whatever you believe be the same with me like that we're contradicting ourselves if we say to them, you know no no no, we're going to help you with your struggle but we disagree with what you believe then the government can say we can believe the same about you your movement and your belief and everything is wrong yeah but we support your right to practice that's what we want from the government the government can then say to us, we disagree with Islam but we support the right to practice because that's what you did for the homosexuals I'll give you another example why do we have to support their rights this is my question, why can't I just live with a tough situation I've been given I'm put in a situation, I'm in a land where there are homosexuals I'm not the leader of the country my belief system is not what's going to govern this land why don't I just live with this ideal I just let it be because you know why my concern comes to my worry is this tribe that some brothers are putting in it's going to come back and fire us the reason is because we're going to have people who don't have a problem with homosexuals anymore it's fine now it's going to trickle into that homosexuals within the narrative it's changing as you can see before it was, we don't support their rights I didn't know you had knowledge of the future you can't say that, you might think that but history repeats itself history repeats itself the early people who وَقَالُوا لَا تَذَرُونَ أَهْلِهَتَكُمْ وَلَا تَذَرُونَ وَدًّا وَلَا سُواعًا وَلَا يَغُوثَ وَيَعُقَ وَنَسْرًا if you look at the five people that were worshipped, initially the people who started it were not doing it to worship it, it was just to remember it, they said let's just put these figures and these pictures here so we can remember it now what happened was, the early people who came are ignorant of what the early people did, the later people who came are ignorant of what the early people did so the late ones started to say oh let's worship, shaytan came and now he brought a new new new argument for them just to get the leg in and now he's and it became five people that were worshipped, I'm saying saying that I support the rights of homosexuality because of my own self is not how it's going to remain even though that itself is a very problematic argument but it gets worse over the time over time it's going to become, why do we even have a problem with them, they're the ones who helped us, they're the ones who supported us we got all of this because of them why do we also have to deal with the homosexual community, why not other communities, why not stand by, also this deteriorates the distinguishing factors that have to be present between haq and batil Allah Ta'ala when he mentioned in the Quran قُلْ جَاءَ الْحَقِّ وَزَهَقَ الْبَاطِلِ إِنَّ الْبَاطِلَ كَانَ زَهُقًا يعني the truth stands and the falsehood is somewhere else they don't work together they don't integrate I don't know you see I am in the west and I am imposed on me these problems, are imposed onto me I'm not the one who's endorsing it, if it was my choice, no don't stop it, all of you stop it, that's what I would say, when I go out of my way, and I say you know what homosexuals, get up, let's go let's rally, let's protest take the billboards, are we doing where's the concept of love and hate? I thought you were a man of the sunnah because the Prophet ﷺ would actively try to change his society, he wouldn't just sit in his home and just be like, just leave me alone, I'm just going to sit in my home, where is the reviving of the sunnah to change the society who said that changing the society is that you hold hands with people who are committing crimes, that's my point where does that come, where does that stem from our religion, the Messenger ﷺ he came and he did things that were right a person was being oppressed he supported that, regardless of who was doing it he would support that, they feel like they've been oppressed, no I'm saying someone is, like you're being oppressed I then have to sign a letter with a homosexual for your rights, for oppression to be uplifted from you, that's another discussion, okay that's another discussion, we'll go into that in a bit but I'm saying to you, you're telling me to fight for the rights of a homosexual for him to practice homosexuality so that you can practice your religion, which is more important but you see what you're using now, it's called the ultimate goal justifies the means, and this is batil, it's like saying I steal wealth to give sadaqah from it so when the Prophet ﷺ signed the treaty and he removed Rasulullah ﷺ that was ends justifying the means by the way the Prophet ﷺ legislates the means so just so you know the Prophet ﷺ when he removed it did not reject the fact that he's a Prophet from Allah, he just said if you don't want me to call myself a Prophet now I'll accept it, but it was still a preferable thing would be to keep it, we agree a more preferable thing would be to keep it, what the Prophet ﷺ did is the most preferable thing to us, but he did that he did that because of the ends that's my argument, no but I'm saying to you the means and the ends are both legislated by Allah through the Prophet ﷺ, you and I, we know something is haram I say okay, if that argument of yours I accept it, I will steal 10 dirhams and then I'll give 1 dirham away someone, or I'll give 9 and I'll take 1, the ends don't justify the means, but I gave sadaqah but I'm trying to help a poor person, yeah but you took from a 10 you took 10 and you gave 1 okay I'll give it all for sadaqah, still it hasn't the ends haven't justified the means because you're equal you took 10 and you gave 10 if you could take 10 and give 20 in your heart and say okay now you've got something, no I took 10 from someone who doesn't need it and I gave it to someone who needs it, okay let's move on swiftly, you see my point means don't justify the goal so that's what's happening here we're going to support a people because we think, and by the way the goal here right now is not even 100% you're not even sure, you're not definitely sure that you're definitely going to get your rights by supporting the homosexuals, but is there a problem with it, I want to give you an example a lot of people, a lot of Muslims in the west, they say that there's this issue of Islamophobia if they have a protest for example to uplift Islamophobia from the Muslims, whether we agree or disagree with the protest it's a separate issue, but let's say they have that and a non-Muslim man comes and supports you and says well I've actually seen you guys being oppressed, I actually want to support you in that, does that mean that he agrees with everything in Islam, does that make him a Muslim? Look, forget it, if a non-Muslim person is oppressed we wouldn't let that happen and we don't want oppression for anybody a non-Muslim person, if he gets oppressed we would get his rights for him but he's a non-Muslim, so it doesn't mean you, just supporting my argument is, just supporting someone's rights, doesn't mean you agree with them no no no, there's a difference a homosexual is being abused by someone, and I come and I stop the person, why are you hitting him for? that's different than supporting his rights to practice homosexuality, this is my point, you are endorsing his action by default, you're saying that he can go and commit Zina with another man, or he can do Liwat with another man, and I believe that he's got rights to do that let me just throw in something here homosexual, he's gonna, in the West he's gonna fulfil his desires anyway isn't it better that he does it inside marriage so promote his rights to marriage isn't it better that he does it inside marriage instead of outside marriage? that's what I'm saying, both is the same you're using the word marriage like it's something that Islam accepted in that way, Islam only considers marriage when it's a man and a woman, even a man if a boy goes with his mum to the town hall and the council and they get a paper and they marry, in Islam that's not marriage that's not marriage it is a man and a woman still not marriage Islam has a definition for marriage so what we're saying is they're still committing Liwat okay, let's go back to the question that you raised before, if there is another Maslaha that for example, people are being oppressed and the homosexual community say we don't like this oppression and the Muslims say we also don't like this oppression, it's got nothing to do with supporting gay rights can we work with them, can we come together on a protest or a march I don't believe in the permissibility of protest in that one side and I don't believe Muslims would bring anything beneficial through protest and demonstration but I do believe there's a difference of opinion on the issue of protest in Western countries and Muslim countries there are differences that being mentioned though I wouldn't do any protest and I wouldn't endorse protest in the UK or in America or Western countries in general, I don't think it brings any benefits, but if you mean would I stand by with a homosexual because of the rights of someone that's been taken from them I see that as an argument to look into side by side, you're standing with them I don't have to stand, we could be signing a paper with them it could be, you see the thing is Kufr is bigger than homosexuality, agreed and the Messenger ﷺ stood beside the non-Muslims in order to bring the rights of oppressed person you know, ﷺ or he said that if they were to come to me and if that was to reoccur again I would do it, Islam just stand with justice if someone is being wronged regardless of his belief system and the dhulm is not permissible for anybody, nobody's money or wealth should be taken, I mean I saw a non-Muslim guy beating up an old lady, I would help the old lady I would defend her, she's not a Muslim though, I'll still defend her you see but I wouldn't defend a person to do something I know is wrong that's a different thing. But the issue with different muslims has nothing to do with supporting their gay rights, a different issue of oppression you, what is your position exactly, because I'm not 100% sure what is your position on working with a gay rights movement an LGBTQ community to uplift that oppression, would you do it? I wouldn't work with them because I find that we're very like working with them in details back and forth and I wouldn't work with them to be honest and I don't think any Muslim should but what I do believe is if anyone's oppressed and a situation arises and I'd have to take a position where I would have to come with so many different communities in order to get that rights brought back to its place, I would do it. And if the only community that was supporting it was the LGBTQ community only them supporting it? Whoever is doing it, I said by the way the LGBTQ community is not worse than disbelievers, I said I'll stand with the disbelievers in order to bring that rights back but that thing that I'm bringing back has to be something which is Shara'an, legislated permitted it's something I can see it's an oppression, wrong being done.
For example what happened to the black community for example they were oppressed, they were wronged it was a from one side which is the police enforcement towards the black community at that moment to stand up and say this is wrong, this is Khata'a. How many voices of people said that? Do you understand my point? Large number of people said that so we we don't have to always sign a paper with them, we don't always have to go to their places and they sit with us and we have meetings. I can be doing it from my own Khutbah to Jumu'ah I'm part of the struggle in that way I can be saying it now just right now from the podcast that I'm sitting I've already sided with everybody who's helping the black community in America who are harmed and beaten by the police I've already helped them out, my voice is now so it doesn't always have to mean that we meet up and of course to make it clear even if you are going to help them in some form, that way of helping cannot entail anything because the ends don't justify the means Okay, I think it's been a really fruitful discussion.
I really want to thank you for your time Just as the final statement I'm happy to give it to you just to summarize some of your thoughts on this discussion My sincere advice is that this issue, a lot of people who are taking it upon themselves in order to bring solutions for the Muslims, I honestly and genuinely advise them to go back to the Ulama I swear to God, going back to the Ulama is a great thing. Going back to the people of knowledge is a virtue wherever they are in the world I'm not saying that they're restricted to a particular land or a particular region, I'm saying that Ulama around the world, but to go back to wherever they are not only are they going to bring you knowledge onto the table, but also those senior scholars who are old in age going back to them and asking them and seeing what they think I believe these young people right now, who are taking it upon themselves that they believe that they have to restore back glory for Muslims in the West, I want to say to them be gentle on yourself, and when they realize that this matter Wallahi Al-Barakatu Ma'a Kabirikum that the Baraka and the blessings is with your senior, senior here meaning the people of knowledge and the people of age, to take the matter back to them. I believe that that's what we're suffering from in the West.
A lot of organizations are doing everything themselves thinking that they have the solutions the solution is in their hands and many of them don't have any scholar in their midst. They have no scholar in their midst and the question you ask yourself is whenever, when did we see in Islamic history where people were taken towards salvation and prosperity by people who are not scholars? Where? In history, where did it happen? Every struggle in Islam that took place that brought about fruits and benefits were always run not only just participated by, but run by Ahlul Ilm people of knowledge and people of age and experience and understanding and comprehension they were the ones who were running it so I believe going back to scholars InshaAllah will solve a lot of our problems and our issues and also being open minded Muslims to whatever solution Allah and his messenger set a lot of people, the minute a ruling is given, even if it is bitter as to say maybe we might have to migrate from their lands they are very, because they don't want to hear that and they only want to scuffle in the dust and the mud of staying here I want to stay here, but I just want to work with it I don't want to go Nabila Muhammad, I want you to understand, migrated at the age of 53 53 years of being in a place how old do you have to be to be a pensioner in the UK, I think it is 62 or 63 10 years later he is going to be a pensioner, peace be upon him he spent the last 10 years of his life he died at the age of 63 the last 10 years of his life he spent it in what? In a land he was a foreigner, peace be upon him so I am just saying, whatever solution is given, we go for it and we stick to that JazakAllah khair
